RNAV arrivals in ATL

[ISaidRightTurns]

Has anyone flown them yet?

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0505/00026CANUK.PDF

I'm looking at the CANUK1 from the SE. After HUSKY at 14 on an east op, what happens? Do you go to BOJAA then just turn downwind? Does approach call the base turn when running visuals? When on ILS, do you cross HESPI at 4k, then turn to join the LOC?

I work the center, so we aren't too clear on what difference this makes than the normal SINCA arrival in this case. I heard it saved Delta thousands, I just don't see how.

Also, what is the clearance when you talk to APPCH? Do they tell you cleard via east/west procedures, or are you expected to allready have the information and just do it?

Any other airports with RNAV arrivals?

 

[2000flyer]

Has anyone flown them yet?

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0505/00026CANUK.PDF

I'm looking at the CANUK1 from the SE. After HUSKY at 14 on an east op, what happens? Do you go to BOJAA then just turn downwind? Does approach call the base turn when running visuals? When on ILS, do you cross HESPI at 4k, then turn to join the LOC?

I work the center, so we aren't too clear on what difference this makes than the normal SINCA arrival in this case. I heard it saved Delta thousands, I just don't see how.

Also, what is the clearance when you talk to APPCH? Do they tell you cleard via east/west procedures, or are you expected to allready have the information and just do it?

Any other airports with RNAV arrivals?

ISRT,

Somewhere on the arrival, depending on what runway ATL is using, they'll clear you for the CANUK1..Runway XX. Many times ATC will also include "Descend via the CANUK1..Runway XX." Now, everyone is on the same descent, freeing ATC from issuing descent clearances, radar vectors, etc. Since this arrival takes you on the downwind to the runway and the fix stops before turning base, TRACON would then provide vectors to the final. NOTE: check the "Notes" section on the bottom left. It specifically says "Expect Radar Vectors to Final Approach Course prior to EMJAA WP." That tells me they continue to fly you all the way to HESPI or WOTBA then turn you. IE. "N1234, Cleared CANUK1 runway 9L. After HESPI, turn right heading 360°."

If you look at the SINCA3, it does give you crossing restrictions, but it leaves you at 12,000 or 14,000 all the way to ATL VOR. Descent and vector after SINCA or HUSKY now have to be provided by ARTCC/TRACON. It's more workload for controllers as well as pilots. On modern FMS/FMC (note the equipment required to shoot the RNAV arrival) these waypoint AND alititude restriction are already programmed in the database, further eliminating several steps a flight crew would have to program.

Now I, thankfully, don't have to fly into ATL (we generally use PDK), I don't know how your folks at center actually handle these arrivals. I've flown several RNAV arrivals and generally make it a habit to verbally confirm I'm cleared to descend on an RNAV arrival. CYA...better safe than sorry...whatever you want the argument to be. I just make it a practice.

It wouldn't surprise me in the near future if these arrivals weren't "linked" to an ILS approach, must like LAX. European airports have been using this procedure for years. You'll get "Cleared to descend via XXXXX# arrival, ILS XX. Generally speaking, you'll still receive a clearance for the ILS by the final controller. However, should you experience lost comm, they now know exactly what you're going to be doing, rather than flying to the FAF and holding until your ETA, or if you late, just shooting the approach. Does this make any sense?

RNAV arrivals are great. Like I said, all fixes/altitudes are already in the FMS database and really reduces crew workload / heads down time. When linked to an approach I can see how it would be a great time/fuel saver for operations like the airlines. Just note that the requirements for using an RNAV arrival are pretty steep. For example, on the CANUK you need ATC RADAR, DME/IRU or GPS, Turbojet only, /E,F,G & R (RNP 2.0). Not everyone, even the airlines, will be able to accept this procedure.

Regards,
2000Flyer

PS - If you have a way of communicating with your counterparts at Las Vegas, they have been the leader in the US for using RNAV procedures.

 

[ISaidRightTurns]

I like the arrivals. It is alot of work to differentiate between a/c and issue one or the other. Its just new clearances to learn. We really like the RNAV SIDs, the STARs are growing on some people, but there is alot of resistance to them locally. New tricks, old dogs.

 

[2000flyer]

If an aircraft did not file the RNAV arrival, do you look for the "/" character before issuing the arrival or do you rely on the operator to decline? Just curious. Going into IAD I had filed a standard arrival and ARTCC cleared me via the RNAV. Figured they could tell by my "/" but wasn't sure.

2000Flyer

 

[shamrock]

Somewhere on the arrival, depending on what runway ATL is using, they'll clear you for the CANUK1..Runway XX. Many times ATC will also include "Descend via the CANUK1..Runway XX." Now, everyone is on the same descent, freeing ATC from issuing descent clearances, radar vectors, etc.

In ATL I've yet to be "cleared" as you describe, other than the arrival being part of our clearance at the departure airport. We've flown the lateral paths of the arrivals but all our descents have been of the "descend and maintain" variety, not "descend via".

Not much difference from the old way other than the lack of assigned headings on downwind.

 

[GravityHater]

What about that RNP? Is there a GPS/FMC out there that does not use RNP 2.0 in the terminal area?

Where do you even look to see what your RNP is? Its not displayed on the Honeywell FMS I use like it displays, "Raim avail". I don't see it in the manuals either.

 

[ISaidRightTurns]

Yeah, we look at every /qualifier. Most of the airlines are up-to-date and file the right arrival, but some of the samller ones still don't. Another problem arrises when a a/c is rerouted for balancing or something. Other center controllers aren't very familiar with our arrivals, so they just clear them via the sinca, even though we are looking for them on the canuk (/g /q).

Alot of confusion when they don't turn.

Also, some international /Qs can't accept an RNAV arrival. I have no idea why.

If an aircraft did not file the RNAV arrival, do you look for the "/" character before issuing the arrival or do you rely on the operator to decline? Just curious. Going into IAD I had filed a standard arrival and ARTCC cleared me via the RNAV. Figured they could tell by my "/" but wasn't sure.

2000Flyer

 

[ISaidRightTurns]

Also, can someone look and see what there FMS shows as the holding pattern at SINCA on the canuk arrival. It's supposed to be 15 mile legs, but I think some FMSs are screwed up and don't show that. Its very annoying clearing someone to hold and them asking for 15 mile legs when that's what is supposed to be published.

 

[2000flyer]

What about that RNP? Is there a GPS/FMC out there that does not use RNP 2.0 in the terminal area?

Where do you even look to see what your RNP is? Its not displayed on the Honeywell FMS I use like it displays, "Raim avail". I don't see it in the manuals either.

On our 2000EX EASy, we have a page on the AFCS that shows the RNP values. They are:

Departure 1.0
Enroute 2.0
Remote 10.0
Arrival 1.0
Approach 0.3
Missed Approach 1.0

It's been a while since I've flown the GNS-Xls in our Citation but I believe there is a page stating the RNP value also, but until I can get to my books tomorrow I can't confirm that.

2000Flyer

 

[SkyBoy1981]

ISRT,Many times ATC will also include "Descend via the CANUK1..Runway XX."

Actually, the descents on the RNAV arrivals into ATL are all "expect only" as noted on the chart. Therefore, each crossing restriction must be specifically assigned by the controller. The phraseology you mentioned above can only be used with mandatory crossing restrictions, such as the DYLIN 2 arrival into EWR.