skydiverdriver
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Let's take that question a little farther...
Assume, for the moment, that CMR/ASA has reached the contractual limit of 57/75 CL-65-700s, as set forth in the DALPA/DAL PWA. As I understand it, the next airplane of this type has to be flown by a DAL pilot.
If that is correct, would the seniority lists be merged because of a common fleet type (the CL-65-700) or would a merger be prohibited because the CL-65-700 is not a permitted type for a prospective merger partner?
Fly safe!
Assume, for the moment, that CMR/ASA has reached the contractual limit of 57/75 CL-65-700s, as set forth in the DALPA/DAL PWA. As I understand it, the next airplane of this type has to be flown by a DAL pilot.
If that is correct, would the seniority lists be merged because of a common fleet type (the CL-65-700) or would a merger be prohibited because the CL-65-700 is not a permitted type for a prospective merger partner?
Fly safe!
enigma
good ol boy
- Joined
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- 2,279
skydiverdriver said:
I only offer to you what I practice myself. I take the chance of looking obstinate/stupid/ignorant/beligerant/etc, in a public attempt to convince others that they are hurting themselves by working for nothing.
Help convince others that the work done by a regional airline pilot is deserving of professional compensation.
Because you're right,,,,, your jobs are not safe as long as there are people willing to work for less. You can beat management over the head until the cows come home, but it won't changed anything. Start beating the PFT'rs and their ilk over the head so as to convince them of the error of their ways and we will be on our way to enhancing our profession.
If memory serves, you waited until PFT was over before you accepted your position with Comair, that's what it will take. When everyone recognizes that the regional jobs are not just a stepping stone to a major, and stops treating them like they are just a means to an end; then things will be better.
Since people are selfish by nature, I doubt that we can accomplish that many changed minds; so in the mean time. We need to push for the rank and file of the second tier airlines, mine included, to demand better money and treatment. And the next time ya'll strike, don't give in.
regards 8N
skydiverdriver
Senior Member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
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- 869
Yes, you are correct that Comair offered me an interview, and I turned it down until they dropped PFT. I refused to come here with that policy. With the situation at the time, I hoped they would drop the policy, as they were not getting many pilots that could be captain qualified in a reasonable amount of time. I hope that my decision may have helped them to change the program, but I will never know. Perhaps if several other pilots did the same thing, it may have helped. However, if they planned well enough ahead of time, they could have trained forigners or lowered their 3000 hour minimum for captains.
I think the best way for us to raise the bar at the regionals is to fight for it. I was part of an 89 day strike at this airline, and I feel we did about all we could to get the job done. I'm not sure what more we could have done without the support of ALPA and some other folks that I've previously written about. We tried to raise the bar, and most of the conversation on this board was about making our definition of struck work less difficult for management and non-union airlines. I also heard a lot of talk about us going the way of Eastern Airlines. Well, thanks for the support. That is a general statement, and not for anyone in particular. Thanks for listening.
I think the best way for us to raise the bar at the regionals is to fight for it. I was part of an 89 day strike at this airline, and I feel we did about all we could to get the job done. I'm not sure what more we could have done without the support of ALPA and some other folks that I've previously written about. We tried to raise the bar, and most of the conversation on this board was about making our definition of struck work less difficult for management and non-union airlines. I also heard a lot of talk about us going the way of Eastern Airlines. Well, thanks for the support. That is a general statement, and not for anyone in particular. Thanks for listening.
Re: I'm thinking
Excellent question. I see you're catching on. Here's the answer. If DAL bougt an airline operating even one (1) airplane with 71 or more seats, the Delta pilot contract requires the Company to merge the acquired carrier with Delta. What the pilots are paid is irrelevant.
In other words, the Delta pilot contract discriminates against airplanes with 70 or less seats and, it follows, the pilots of those airplanes.
If the acquired airline is represented by ALPA, the DAL contract specifies that ALPA merger policy will be used to integrate the seniority lists.
Wouldn't it be ironic if the Company, citing ALPA's recent merger decision re Comair, were to elect to operate the acquisition as a "separate (not operationally integrated) carrier"? I'd bet a dollar to a dougnut the ALPA would go ballistic, shout Alter Ego to the heavens and the Delta pilots would instantly file a greivance demanding merger or else!
Nevertheless, as everyone knows, the same Delta pilot group hired a lawyer to prevent the application of ALPA merger policy, when Delta purchased a 1400 pilot airline, operating 100 jets, with net profits in the 100s of millions per annum, flying in Delta livery and fully integrated operationallywith Delta, whose pilots had been members of ALPA for 17 years. And guess what? ALPA decided (by a vote of 10 mainline pilots against 1 regional pilot and one freighter pilot) that those CMR pilots were not worthy of its merger policy and further, that ALPA would ignore its long standing anti Alter Ego policy. Why? Because their airplanes were RJs, with less than 71 seats.
However, ALPA insists that the decision was not made in bad faith, was not arbitrary, was not discriminatory and did not violate any of its policies or its duty to fairly represent ALL of its members. You do know the moon is made of green cheese, right?
Have no fear, if Delta should buy Spirit you will be integrated onto the Delta seniority list. That is because your DC-9's are "real airplanes" and you of course are "real airline pilots", not regional children.
Now, you will undoubted be stapled to the Delta list, somewhere below future new hires who do not now work for Delta. (Like they did to the junior Pan Am pilots.) Don't worry though, it would be a nice ratio of let's guess 10:1., i.e., the 1st 10 numbers below the most junior DAL pilot (currently on the list) will be reserved for future Delta new hires, then comes your most senior pilot, then 10 more Delta new hires, and 1 Spirit pilot, etc., etc.
For that I'm sure you will be greatful and happy due to the windfall of enhanced career expectations that you will receive at DAL (not to mention permission to call DAL pilots by their first names (followed by Sir). Consider yourselvs "lucky"!
Oh, I almost forgot. You also get to wear brand new jackets with two sets of buttons. Now that's special, bud. Nobody else gets to do that!
I'm in the dark on that one. I did not even know that Delta had ever made ANY offer to buy Spirit (or even considered such an offer). You learn something every day.
I do know that Comair made and offer to buy Spirit some years back and, it was accepted by your management. The deal was subject only to "due dilligence". When Value Jet lost the 9 in Florida your loads plummeted and Comair backed out of the deal.
I think it was a good decision by CMR to buy and a bad decision by CMR management to back out of the deal. But I guess that's why I'm a pilot and not a manager.
BTW, at the time Comair was more than 10 times the size of Spirit and it was a "cash" offer (in an amount that our CEO privately described as "chump change"). If I remember you had 10 or 12 airframes at the time (mostly -40 & -41s). They wanted to operate Spirit separately from Comair and keep a "low fare" operation (as you are today). If I remember you had 80 or 90 pilots at the time and only a handful of the most senior had 6 years at Spirit. Spirit was non-union at the time (you applied to join ALPA as soon as the sale became public).
The Comair MEC would not accept 2 separate pilot lists and worked out a deal that would allow 2 companies, buy ONE seniority list. Your (unofficial) leadership was very concerned about what would happen to Spirit pilots if the deal closed. When the Comair MEC informed him of the seniority integration plan and the protections in it for Spirit pilots, he was so surprised by its fairness that his mouth opened. (Lets just say it was a little different from what he was offered in MSP after the Midway collapse). The CMR MEC's seniority merger plan protected ALL Spirit pilots fully, including their seats and even their schedule bidding rights. It also did not place any fences as obstacles to Spirit pilots.
I'll tell you candidly (no offense intended) that CMR pilots did not see Spirit as having anything that we wanted as pilots. But we did see the danger of an Alter Ego. If the deal had closed, we could easily have screwed you out of everything. Instead, we proposed to include you in everything we had, while protecting for you everything that you had. That's the kind of people Comair leaders are. We don't take from our brothers, even if they aren't in ALPA.
Regards,
PS. Let me know when you get done "thinking" and which "side" you choose to come down on.
enigma said:
Excellent question. I see you're catching on. Here's the answer. If DAL bougt an airline operating even one (1) airplane with 71 or more seats, the Delta pilot contract requires the Company to merge the acquired carrier with Delta. What the pilots are paid is irrelevant.
In other words, the Delta pilot contract discriminates against airplanes with 70 or less seats and, it follows, the pilots of those airplanes.
If the acquired airline is represented by ALPA, the DAL contract specifies that ALPA merger policy will be used to integrate the seniority lists.
Wouldn't it be ironic if the Company, citing ALPA's recent merger decision re Comair, were to elect to operate the acquisition as a "separate (not operationally integrated) carrier"? I'd bet a dollar to a dougnut the ALPA would go ballistic, shout Alter Ego to the heavens and the Delta pilots would instantly file a greivance demanding merger or else!
Nevertheless, as everyone knows, the same Delta pilot group hired a lawyer to prevent the application of ALPA merger policy, when Delta purchased a 1400 pilot airline, operating 100 jets, with net profits in the 100s of millions per annum, flying in Delta livery and fully integrated operationallywith Delta, whose pilots had been members of ALPA for 17 years. And guess what? ALPA decided (by a vote of 10 mainline pilots against 1 regional pilot and one freighter pilot) that those CMR pilots were not worthy of its merger policy and further, that ALPA would ignore its long standing anti Alter Ego policy. Why? Because their airplanes were RJs, with less than 71 seats.
However, ALPA insists that the decision was not made in bad faith, was not arbitrary, was not discriminatory and did not violate any of its policies or its duty to fairly represent ALL of its members. You do know the moon is made of green cheese, right?
Have no fear, if Delta should buy Spirit you will be integrated onto the Delta seniority list. That is because your DC-9's are "real airplanes" and you of course are "real airline pilots", not regional children.
Now, you will undoubted be stapled to the Delta list, somewhere below future new hires who do not now work for Delta. (Like they did to the junior Pan Am pilots.) Don't worry though, it would be a nice ratio of let's guess 10:1., i.e., the 1st 10 numbers below the most junior DAL pilot (currently on the list) will be reserved for future Delta new hires, then comes your most senior pilot, then 10 more Delta new hires, and 1 Spirit pilot, etc., etc.
For that I'm sure you will be greatful and happy due to the windfall of enhanced career expectations that you will receive at DAL (not to mention permission to call DAL pilots by their first names (followed by Sir). Consider yourselvs "lucky"!
Oh, I almost forgot. You also get to wear brand new jackets with two sets of buttons. Now that's special, bud. Nobody else gets to do that!
I'm in the dark on that one. I did not even know that Delta had ever made ANY offer to buy Spirit (or even considered such an offer). You learn something every day.
I do know that Comair made and offer to buy Spirit some years back and, it was accepted by your management. The deal was subject only to "due dilligence". When Value Jet lost the 9 in Florida your loads plummeted and Comair backed out of the deal.
I think it was a good decision by CMR to buy and a bad decision by CMR management to back out of the deal. But I guess that's why I'm a pilot and not a manager.
BTW, at the time Comair was more than 10 times the size of Spirit and it was a "cash" offer (in an amount that our CEO privately described as "chump change"). If I remember you had 10 or 12 airframes at the time (mostly -40 & -41s). They wanted to operate Spirit separately from Comair and keep a "low fare" operation (as you are today). If I remember you had 80 or 90 pilots at the time and only a handful of the most senior had 6 years at Spirit. Spirit was non-union at the time (you applied to join ALPA as soon as the sale became public).
The Comair MEC would not accept 2 separate pilot lists and worked out a deal that would allow 2 companies, buy ONE seniority list. Your (unofficial) leadership was very concerned about what would happen to Spirit pilots if the deal closed. When the Comair MEC informed him of the seniority integration plan and the protections in it for Spirit pilots, he was so surprised by its fairness that his mouth opened. (Lets just say it was a little different from what he was offered in MSP after the Midway collapse). The CMR MEC's seniority merger plan protected ALL Spirit pilots fully, including their seats and even their schedule bidding rights. It also did not place any fences as obstacles to Spirit pilots.
I'll tell you candidly (no offense intended) that CMR pilots did not see Spirit as having anything that we wanted as pilots. But we did see the danger of an Alter Ego. If the deal had closed, we could easily have screwed you out of everything. Instead, we proposed to include you in everything we had, while protecting for you everything that you had. That's the kind of people Comair leaders are. We don't take from our brothers, even if they aren't in ALPA.
Regards,
PS. Let me know when you get done "thinking" and which "side" you choose to come down on.
Here's a WAG Answer
My best guess is there would be NO merger. The Delta pilots do not want it. It's not because it's not a "permitted" type. They do not wish to integrate with ASA/CMR types and have made that very clear.
I'd be willing to bet the "common fleet type" would dissapear just as soon as they could force the Company to transfer the -700 from ASA/CMR to DAL. Don't forget they have already tried to do that and the ONLY reason they did not succeed is because the Company said no.
Slim said:
My best guess is there would be NO merger. The Delta pilots do not want it. It's not because it's not a "permitted" type. They do not wish to integrate with ASA/CMR types and have made that very clear.
I'd be willing to bet the "common fleet type" would dissapear just as soon as they could force the Company to transfer the -700 from ASA/CMR to DAL. Don't forget they have already tried to do that and the ONLY reason they did not succeed is because the Company said no.
FlyDeltasJets
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 664
Surplus,
You accuse us of discriminating based on the size of your aircraft. You hurl thinly veiled insults at Delta pilots because our contract sets a certain seat number, above which lists must be merged.
Please correct me if I am wrong (seriously), but I believe the first section of your new contract specifies that management must only merge into your operation only airplanes that have 19 seats or more. Perhaps I am mistaken, your new contract might not include this clause. I am pretty sure that your old one did, however. It appears that you are criticizing us for doing the same thing you have done. The only thing we differ on is the amount of seats we "discriminate" against.
Seems to me like this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Please let me know if I have been misinformed regarding your contract.
P.S.
Due to our pathetically weak contract, it appears that we no longer have much of a scope clause. All that happens now is that DALPA and mgt. must "meet and confer". Doesn't sound too promising. Guess there is not much need for the rjdc any more. If your careers were ever limited (not that there is any evidence of this), they won't be now.
You accuse us of discriminating based on the size of your aircraft. You hurl thinly veiled insults at Delta pilots because our contract sets a certain seat number, above which lists must be merged.
Please correct me if I am wrong (seriously), but I believe the first section of your new contract specifies that management must only merge into your operation only airplanes that have 19 seats or more. Perhaps I am mistaken, your new contract might not include this clause. I am pretty sure that your old one did, however. It appears that you are criticizing us for doing the same thing you have done. The only thing we differ on is the amount of seats we "discriminate" against.
Seems to me like this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Please let me know if I have been misinformed regarding your contract.
P.S.
Due to our pathetically weak contract, it appears that we no longer have much of a scope clause. All that happens now is that DALPA and mgt. must "meet and confer". Doesn't sound too promising. Guess there is not much need for the rjdc any more. If your careers were ever limited (not that there is any evidence of this), they won't be now.
FlyDeltasJets said:
Yes, I beleive your contract discriminates based on aircraft size. Any thinly veiled insults are not directed at all Delta pilots. The opinion that I have of the Delta line pilot, is substantially different from the opinion I have about the Delta union leaders. I'm trying to keep myself believing that the average Delta line pilot is a victim of union propaganda. Unless you're on the MEC don't take it personally.
You are not wrong. Our current contact does contain exactly what you say (the old one did not). You should know that I disagree as strongly with that as I disagree with the provision in your contract. My opinions are not hypocritical, the Comair contract should NOT contain that provision.
I happen to know how it got there. It was a component of a two part proposal (we give you this if you give us that), a quid pro quo if you will. The other part is not in the contract, yet this undesirable part somehow survived. I don't know why or how.
Essentially our previous contract had (for practical purposes) very limited Scope. Our current contract (for practical purposes) has no Scope at all. We could tear out Section 1 and not lose much of anything.
Since I don't have the power to decide what goes in the Comair contract, I can tell you that there are LOTS of things in it whith which I disagree. Yours truly is not a happy camper when it comes to that.
If there is a difference between us on this it is that I believe you support the content of your contract with respect to the exemption. I openly and vigorously oppose the content of mine.
I did not realize that you scope grievance had been decided. I knew about the furlough grievance (see my message to you in the other thread).
You know that I oppose that component of your scope clause so I do hope you are not successful in that arbitration. I wish it wasn't based (the grievance or the company's argument) on force majeure. The Company will win on that score, but force majeure will go away and then your scope will come back. I want to permanently return your anti RJ scope to the 1996 level at a minimum.
Last edited:
enigma
good ol boy
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Re: Re: I'm thinking
Surplus 1, I'm convinced about the name relevance issue, even though I still think that you would be more effective if the name was't aircraft specific, I conceed that point and I won't even pull skydiverdrivers chain on that one anymore
I wasn't at Spirit when the Comair deal was on the table, but your recounting parallels the acounts I have heard. I also heard that Spirit received a substantial sum after Comair backed out of the deal.
As for choosing sides on the current situation, I'll have to take a pass. I'm too simple and the issue is too complex. I have my own positions that just don't agree with either side, and like I posted to SDD, the best chance that the RJ side had to gain stature was in last years Comair strike. It is my contention that as long as there is a ready supply of labor who is willing to work for less and put up with poor treatment, management will do whatever is necessary to utilize them.
regards
8N
BTW, I haven't done any scientific polling, but I don't think that we have a majority of pilots who would want to be merged into a majors list. We unionized in an attempt to be able to preserve jobs in the case of a merger, but I think that most of us recognize the reality of mergers between large and small. We just didn't want to go the way of the ChallengeAirCargo pilots.
(
Surplus 1, I'm convinced about the name relevance issue, even though I still think that you would be more effective if the name was't aircraft specific, I conceed that point and I won't even pull skydiverdrivers chain on that one anymore
I wasn't at Spirit when the Comair deal was on the table, but your recounting parallels the acounts I have heard. I also heard that Spirit received a substantial sum after Comair backed out of the deal.
As for choosing sides on the current situation, I'll have to take a pass. I'm too simple and the issue is too complex. I have my own positions that just don't agree with either side, and like I posted to SDD, the best chance that the RJ side had to gain stature was in last years Comair strike. It is my contention that as long as there is a ready supply of labor who is willing to work for less and put up with poor treatment, management will do whatever is necessary to utilize them.
regards
8N
BTW, I haven't done any scientific polling, but I don't think that we have a majority of pilots who would want to be merged into a majors list. We unionized in an attempt to be able to preserve jobs in the case of a merger, but I think that most of us recognize the reality of mergers between large and small. We just didn't want to go the way of the ChallengeAirCargo pilots.
(
surplus1 said:
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