RJDC update 8/20/02

[FlyingSig]

FDJ is "angry" because he personally has become a victim of the economic downturn and is furloughed.

Interesting language in that quote. I thought we were furloughed due to circumstances beyond the control of Delta. If it were an ecconomic downturn, well, then that would be an illegal furlough..... ok , I digress.....

 

[surplus1]

Interesting language in that quote. I thought we were furloughed due to circumstances beyond the control of Delta. If it were an ecconomic downturn, well, then that would be an illegal furlough..... ok , I digress.....

Aren't you being just a tad facetious? It seems to me that most everyone knows or ought to know that the economic impact of 9/11 has been monumental. We can pretend all we want that it "would have happened anyway", and perhaps it would have to a mild extent. This huge decline, particularly in the airlines is directly related to what occured on that fateful day and it's far from over.

The circumstance is the key issue. We all regret that it happened but your Company isn't wrong about that and neither was the arbitrator.

 

[~~~^~~~]

FDJ:

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. To answer your questions - yes, I support the RJDC and feel the lawsuit is necessary as long as ALPA ignores (and sometimes goes out of their way) to harm members in violation of the Union's Constitution and Bylaws. The union should not be allowed to enter into negotiations with the same employer and favor one employee over another - that practice is discriminatory, arbitrary and is blatant bad faith. Second - since ALPA will not modify their actions voluntarily, they must be made to change. The more compelling reason we can provide, the more likely it is that ALPA will repair the issues that divide our union.

ALPA is capable of causing much more harm than the union is worth, in practical dollar terms. The effect of denying the PID, Jets for Jobs, and other ALPA mistakes easily exceeds the net worth of the union. That is why ALPA should use its power conservatively and not allow activist MECs to run over other ALPA members - by using their exclusive bargaining agent status to unfairly harm smaller pilots at MEC groups.

Just read the union's Consitution and Bylaws. Is it too much to ask that the union simply obey its own rules?

Going to the BOD this year?

P.S. We should have a lot more to talk about after the 26th. Good luck to you guys - and to us as well - we may need it.

 

[surplus1]

FlyDeltasJets

You know what FDJ; this argument is really pointless. We should be talking about possible ways to solve the problems and settle our differences. Instead, we are arguing like schoolboys (I'm just as guilty as you are) about words, dollars and meaningless other baloney while we posture and kick sand at each other.

Either there is a conflict and a problem between our groups or there isn't. Either you want it solved or you don't. The whole thing is really that simple.

If you want the problem solved, then we sit down as equals and work together until we come up with a solution that we both can live with.

If you do NOT want the problem solved, then we continue to fight with each other until one of us prevails over the other. Today my side is fighting with a lawsuit and one lawyer. You are fighting with your PR department and a host of high paid lawyers. Tomorrow it will get worse and the war will grow until somebody can declare a victory.

Really, it's up to you guys. We are doing what we need to do right now. You can continue to complain about it as much as you please. That is NOT going to solve anything. What is needed is a binding and enforceable solution that is mutually agreed.

With a little bit of common sense, we could turn this dispute into a win/win solution, but we can't force you to do that. We have offered and, up until now, you have refused to talk. If you choose to continue the battle, ultimately there will be a winner and a loser.

Just remember, "the bigger they are, the harder they fall."

 

[Tim47SIP]

The last man statnding

Surplus, I personally believe that they (Delta mainline-you told me not to use DALPA) have absolutely no intention of changing anything. It strikes me as "odd" that only the regional guys are really trying to come up with any type of plan to help. Not once have I read or heard of any mainline guy initiating a plan to fix the current situation and get their guys back on the tarmack. I think that they are so set in their above thou thinking that things will continue until only one person is standing. They would all die before mingling with the likes of the regional slime. They say that they have no intention to take any type of pay reduction to get their guys off the street so that they can preserve the industry. Well, that is awfully brave of them to have to suck it up and collect those paychecks while their guys are on the street. They blame the regional pilots for being whores and working for low wages which is causing their current problems. They refuse (other than FDJ) to site blame with the competition of the low cost carriers that employ the low cost pilots and sell those super low cost tickets. They negotiate damaging restrictions upon their management in order to preserve their flying which does nothing but hurts the bottom line (read-profits). They refuse to believe that the industry is changing around them and will one day wake up and yell "Hey, wait for me!"Today is the 26th and I believe the day Delta announces it's restructuring plan. I can only imagine how the mainline guys are going to try and get their guys back on the pay roll. I seriously dought that anything (consessions) reqiured by management to accomplish this will come from the mainline sides. Wonder where they will come from.

 

[surplus1]

Much of what you say is not too far off target. Whether Delta's mainline pilots will seek to resolve the issues that divide them from Delta's regional pilots is highly doubtful.

As it stands ALPA and the DMEC are both in denial. They seem to have decided that the only "problem" in all of this is the regional pilot group itself and there is nothing they ought to do, other than get rid of it. In their view, whatever they do is OK and there is no reason for them to modify their behavior.

They never make comments on any suggested solution nor do they offer any soloution of their own and I don't expect they will. When you do not want a "solution" and prefer to make war, talk of peace is a waste of time.

From their perspective the only needed solution is a better way to get rid of the regional pilots who ARE the problem. What they've done at USAir Group is a pretty good indicator of their intentions. If it works there, they will try it elsewhere. It's only a matter of time and opportunity.

[ALPA] " . . . a master manipulator who will twist and dodge around the clock to keep the privileges of power and pelf." -- Nick Cohen, "Without prejudice"

 

[skydiverdriver]

Do people actually believe that the low cost carriers are the reason for their problems? Aren't they just giving the consumer what they want? Perhaps it's the large full-fare airlines fault for not coming up with a similar plan themselves. Oh, wait, I guess some have tried, and most have failed.

One question for the major guys, if your company offered you a contract that paid you the highest rates in the industry, but also guaranteed the company would go out of business, would you sign it? How about if that contract would guarantee many of your junior fellows would be furloughed? One person said that Delta could replace the entire airline with RJ's. Well, I'm not sure that an RJ could fly overseas very well, not without a fuel stop anyway. There will always be a need for larger jets, and more small jets mean more people flying in the large jets.

 

[Otto]

Well said Skydiver. Guess what? There were furloughs before the RJ! Yes...hard to believe but it's true! It's tough to blame something faceless like the economy (the true culprit), so the regional guys are just scapegoats. Mainline guys are on the street...just like MANY of those who have gone before them in years past. How often do you meet a senior guy at a major who has never been furloughed in his career? Rarely. Furloughed guys talk about their routes being replaced by RJs but in years past, many of these routes would simply have been eliminated when the economy took a dip. I'm all for pilots being well paid but scope and contract restrictions simply don't work. Ultimately the market will decide what will happen. I think the guys at the majors need to embrace their regional brothers as it may be the only thing that allows their airlines to compete with the likes of Airtran and Southwest. God forbid a carrier should be able to put a plane on a route that matches the demand! Some may not like what I'm saying and I wish it weren't true myself...I'd love all pilots to make a million a year but it's not economic reality and it's time to face the music. The purpose of an airline is to provide a service to the consumer and to make money...not to provide pilots with the highest paying jobs possible. This whole idea of trying to preserve the status quo is downright absurd and borderline socialism. Go ahead DALPA...try to keep things the same... I'd hate to see my favorite major fall to bankruptcy. Change or die...because the market is changing and it always wins.

 

[NYRANGERS]

[It's a tough fight, and I am not so sure we will turn out so good on this one.

Otto, if you are not allready at Delta, I am afraid it may be a very long time before you get your chance (if ever).

I think the furloughed pilots will have to be brought back in the semi near future, but hiring is so far off that I won't try to hazzard a guess.

You may be able to go to Comair or ASA, but even they are under attact from a lower common denominator.

I hope I am wrong, good luck..

 

[skydiverdriver]

Hay rangers, don't take this the wrong way, but why do you post the last guy's entire message in your post? It seems to me that anyone who wants to read it again can go up one post, so it seems like a waste of space to me.

I'm not sure why you say that Comair is under attack by a lower common denominator. I'm sure you are talking about the Chataqua thing in MCO, but they aren't restricting our growth. Some Comair pilots are upset that they have to move, but we are growing and hiring, and their flying for Delta doesn't affect us at all. It's the same way Comair and ASA flying doesn't hurt Delta pilots, it inhances it. Better to have an rj flying to some city that couldn't support a larger jet, than to have nobody going there from our company and let the competition take our passengers. I have heard that some people call the rj a replacement jet. It should be a trc, temporary replacement jet.