RJDC update 8/20/02

[Otto]

Otto, if you are not allready at Delta, I am afraid it may be a very long time before you get your chance (if ever).

NY,
I hope you're wrong...I'd love to be at Delta someday as they've been my favorite since I was a kid. I just hope they have the flexibility to compete in todays and tomorrows markets. If I don't have the chance, it will be because their labor cost have become so fat, they can't compete. RJ's aren't the problem...it's Southwest and Airtran. It's a free market so they're winning fair and square. The point of my post was that mainline guys are blaming RJ's but with the latest contract (highest in the industry) they only have themselves to blame, or at the very least, they share a large part of it. Sometimes I wonder if I'd be happier aiming for Southwest someday and trading in some of those big bucks for better job security. We shall see....the times they are a changin...

 

[surplus1]

Something tells me Southwest pilots have a scope clause so tight that it will turn coal into diamonds. Probably one of the many reasons we'll never see a "Southwest Connection". Any SWA pilots care to comment?

Something tells me you should read the SouthWest contract, Jim.

 

[enigma]

Something tells me you should read the SouthWest contract, Jim.

OK bud, let me guess. NO scope for SWA, am I correct?

regards,
8N

PS, all my SWA buddies are koolaide drinkers who probably don't know either. All they know is that they are happy to be there.

 

[DiMora]

I am furloughed Delta, and I DO NOT WANT any mainline guys to offer ANY concessions. ZERO CONCESSIONS!. Once you give something away, you may never give it back. I would rather be out 5 years and go back to a good contract vs. going back immediately under sub par conditions and a concessionary contract. Like Leo said: "A contract is a contract". One of the hardest things to learn in this career is to be proud. You have a value. Do not prostitute yourself. The majority of furloughed guys will tell you the same thing.

The mainline Delta guys are a strong brotherhood of top shelf individuals. I am thankful for the COBRA they are paying from their personal paychecks to give me health insurance.

Surplus1, after flaming me in a previous thread, you ran away and never acknowledged my queries. You are a typical RJDC supporter, looking for a free handout. You screwed up your own career; you never had the motivation, desire, education, or to use your own words, "the right stuff" to make it to the majors, and now you are a bitter old man who wants a freebie handout. You want all the money and the good schedule without ever having had to make the sacrifice of going through probation, commuting, the lousy schedule, the danger of furlough.

You never made it to the top because of your own actions, and instead of accepting it, you are crying like a child.

You better hope your lawsuit wins, because as far as my vote is concerned, you will get nothing.

 

[FlyingSig]

One question for the major guys, if your company offered you a contract that paid you the highest rates in the industry, but also guaranteed the company would go out of business, would you sign it?

Isn't that what Comair management said about the pilot proposal during your contract?

And SDD... haven't you proclaimed that you didn't get enough in your contract? But doesn't management always tell the truth??? (TIC)

 

[~~~^~~~]

I am furloughed Delta, and I DO NOT WANT any mainline guys to offer ANY concessions. ZERO CONCESSIONS!. Once you give something away, you may never give it back. I would rather be out 5 years and go back to a good contract vs. going back immediately under sub par conditions and a concessionary contract. Like Leo said: "A contract is a contract". One of the hardest things to learn in this career is to be proud.

Pride comes before the fall. Your Company must eventually make a profit, or else there will be no job to return to. Do you simply expect the Connection side of the house to subsidize your losing operation forever?

You screwed up your own career; you never had the motivation, desire, education, or to use your own words, "the right stuff" to make it to the majors, and now you are a bitter old man who wants a freebie handout. You never made it to the top because of your own actions.

DiMora - Do you know anything about - eh - anything? Some people are in this business because they like to fly. That is the market reality, deal with it. For you it is all about you, all about "your" money. Others are motivated by more altruistic goals. We know nothing about Surplus' reasons for his career choices. How dare you insult him personally when you know nothing about him. How rude.

I'm one of those pilots you look down you nose at - despite the fact there was no sim ride, no objective measures of your performance at Delta and I would bet I've got you by a few initials when it comes to educational background. We are all very proud that you knew someone who knew Plato and your timing was fortunate. Arrogance is always ugly and rarely justified. Your attitude breeds the sort of dislike that could result in a few thousand pilots crossing your picket line with a smile on their face.

Again, I stress, you need unity more than we do. The more your pay and benefits exceeds market realities - the more you need unity.

You are formerly the highest paid pilot on the planet for your job position and you are currently unemployed. As they say, the tallest tree in the forest gets cut down first. You need ALPA to adopt the RJDC's position because as codeshare continues to grow your vote becomes more, and more, irrelevant.

United Plus? Is that what you want when U declares Chapter 13? Good luck getting on at ASA. For that job you will need to know Capt. Boyd, know your regs and fly the sim. But we have got a lot of Delta, American and US Air applicants. Hope your times are up to snuff.

It would have been so much better had ALPA followed their Constitution and Bylaws, if you were still flying and Connection pilots were out from under the constant threat of predatory attack from arrogant, rash, reckless and foolishly divisive bigots.

 

[~~~^~~~]

You better hope your lawsuit wins, because as far as my vote is concerned, you will get nothing.

Does he have a vote when he is on the street. I don't know. Guess I could call my father since he was furloughed nine times. DiMora, believe me, some of us know, being furloughed sucks.

 

[surplus1]

Part 1 of 2

Originally posted by DiMora Surplus 1,
Man, I really pushed your buttons!

Yes, you did (now twice) and I pushed you right back before and will do it now again. You evidently didn't like that; well I didn't either. Does it make you feel good that we are now behaving like two schoolboys in a sandlot? Well, it doesn't make me feel good, but I'm human and sick and tired of people with your ill-informed philosophy and condescending attitude. Every now and then you need to be told where to stick it.

I decided to ignore your questions earlier because they had little to do with the subject matter and they were personal in nature. Now you've repeated them again, without provocation. I don't mind your disagreeing with me, but apparently I was right the first time I replied to you and challenged your spoiled brat attitude.

What can I say?

Nothing. You've already said what you wanted to and so have I. You're in dire need of an attitude adjustment.

Tell me about your career. Why have you spent so many years at Comair? Did you not want to go to the majors? I realise not eveyone wants a major job, but what is your story? Did you apply for major job? If so, did you get an interview? Were you rejected? Why are you so jaded? Are you an RJDC supporter? Do you think your umpteen years and 25,000 hours as an aviator entitle you to get a free ride?

from your second post about me
Surplus1, after flaming me in a previous thread, you ran away and never acknowledged my queries. You are a typical RJDC supporter, looking for a free handout. You screwed up your own career; you never had the motivation, desire, education, or to use your own words, "the right stuff" to make it to the majors, and now you are a bitter old man who wants a freebie handout. You want all the money and the good schedule without ever having had to make the sacrifice of going through probation, commuting, the lousy schedule, the danger of furlough.

You never made it to the top because of your own actions, and instead of accepting it, you are crying like a child.

You better hope your lawsuit wins, because as far as my vote is concerned, you will get nothing.

That's kind of funny. Are you sure you really want to know about my career? What are you trying to do, find a reason to confirm your imagined superiority? Very well, I'll tell you.

I am a former military pilot (USAF). I became an airline pilot after leaving the military. I have worked for more than one carrier. Like you, I have instructed in light aircraft and in heavy aircraft (much heavier than a DHC-8, which is a light aircraft in my vocabulary). Comair isn't my first airline, but it will be my last airline. I have spent more years at Comair, than you said you have been flying total. Why? Basically because I felt like it. I like the people and I liked the Company, before it was purchased by Delta. I wish that Delta had never bought it.

Yes, I wanted to go to "the majors". Yes, I applied for the job. Yes, I was interviewed. Yes, I was rejected by some and Yes, I was hired by others. So, I've "been there and done that" (on both sides of the fence) and was doing it while you (I would guess) were still wearing diapers. I flew as an international captain, in 4-engine "heavy stuff" (as you call it) for 20 years before I ever heard of Comair. I've also flown 4-engine freighters trans-oceanic, as captain, apparently long before you had a pilot's license. The 25K hours are a very conservative number and I have long since become uninterested in numbers in a logbook. It entitles me to nothing. I still need a buck for a cup of coffee, $10 for a haircut and money for the mortgage and the grocer. Since I already have a "ride", I don't need a "ride" free or otherwise and I'm not personally the least bit interested in your seniority list for personal gain. I don't need lessons on how to be an airline pilot from anyone at Delta, especially not a new hire novice like you.

I'm not jaded or bitter and yes, I've been furloughed too, and I wear a star on my pin, and I've never crossed any line. I'm happy with what I do and I'm happy with what I did before I came to Comair. I even like myself (quite a bit actually). You, young man, make far too many assumptions, as do most of the junior airmen at your airline, but this pilot can afford to write them off and attribute them to your inexperience. Oh by the way, yes, I have a degree too and enough type ratings to require a two-card license. Am I more acceptable now?

Did I ever apply to Delta? NO. Why? Frankly because when I was in that phase of my professional life, Delta was still a small carrier, did not fly internationally and I wasn't the least bit interested in anything in Georgia. Additionally, the apparent "culture" of the pilot group (today), as manifested by your attitude, is to me undesirable and alien.

I am not a pompous or money hungry person, and I don't look down on fellow pilots because they have lesser jobs. Neither do I look up to kids like you or anyone else at your airline. I look across at you and in your eyes as the equal that I am. In other words, you folks don't impress me and I do not envy you.

Delta used to employ a cadre of gentlemen, but if you're an example of what they do now, it has changed to a cadre of supercilious creeps with swelled heads and inflated egos. One that I personally have no interest whatever in being a part of. It is undesirable. I'm just an aviator, plain, simple and not particularly impressed with myself. I don't even like double-breasted suits and don't own any. I wear the same hat size that I did 35 years ago and I've never suffered from swelling between the ears because of where I've worked or what I've flown. Satisfied? Does that answer your questions?

Now, what difference does any of that make? None! Absolutely zero. It's irrelevant and has nothing to do with the problems that currently exist, the conflicts within the union or the subject matter of this thread. If you wish to discuss the problems we face, do so. If your objective is to impress or intimidate me, you came to the wrong place. Go dry behind your ears and then come back.

Yes, I am a supporter of the RJDC. I am not concerned about my popularity within the ALPA or with you, nor am I afraid of being blackballed. I don't have to be politically correct, have no fears of the powers that be or those to come. I will continue to support the efforts of the RJDC until the final ruling of the courts has been made or a settlement of the dispute has been reached. I can assure you that I spend no time whatever worrying about whom might like that or who does not.

I am pleased to learn that you do not want my job. I suspect that most of your peers don't want it either. However, your leaders and our union have attempted to transfer equipment from my airline to yours and to further curtail the operation of whatever remains of my flying. You also continue to remind us that the Company can fly as many RJs as it chooses, "at the mainline". Your groups behavior is inconsistent with your rhetoric.

It is therefore evident that you seek to harm the careers of my fellow pilots. You can't harm mine because it is over anyway. Therefore, I am not fighting for me, I'm fighting to do what little I can for my fellow pilots. As long as you continue to pursue that policy, I will continue to fight it by all legal means available. Whether you like that or not will not change it. Whether you approve or disapprove is irrelevant. That's the way it is.

Having already flown what you call the "heavy stuff" extensively and considering that I will soon retire from active flying, I have nothing to gain or lose personally from these developments. My efforts in seeking justice and demanding fair representation from the union that we pay for that purpose is not motivated by personal ambition or potential gain. In contrast you obviously have no cause but self-interest. You're shallow and greedy.

I also have no personal desire to work for your Company, but guess what? I already do, through no fault of my own and whether or not you approve. Your denial of that reality does not harm me personally but it does harm my fellow pilots. Therefore, for as long as I work here and for as long after I retire as possible, I'm not going to allow you or anyone else to engage in activities prejudicial to the welfare of my fellow pilots without attempting to defend them. The leaders of our union, the union leaders at your airline and at every other "major" airline have set upon a course that is taking advantage of and damaging to the interests of my fellow pilots and regional pilots everywhere. I think that is wrong and perverts the reasons for which our union exists. I will do what I can, for as long as I can, to change that. If that's not clear, I'll send you the pictures.

Yes, I do think you're arrogant. That is self-evident in what you wrote. You seem to believe that your employment at Delta is indicative of some form of superiority on your part. I don't. They were hiring, you applied, you were interviewed and they decided to hire you. That buddy is nothing more than the luck of the draw. It had nothing to do with you "paying your dues" which, candidly, is a meaningless and self-serving superstition. You had the basic qualifications and you happened to be in the right place at the right time or perhaps you had a "friend" who helped you in the line. That's the way every pilot gets an airline job and there is nothing more "special" about you than anyone one else. Your arrogance is therefore unjustified. It looks like you must have used a gouge to get by the personality profile for, based on your writings here, you do NOT fit the mold of what used to be called a Delta pilot.

Continue to Part 2

 

[surplus1]

Part 2 of 2

You and a lot of the other junior birdmen on your property believe that you were furloughed because of the regional jets. That's just one more indicator of your inexperience and lack of knowledge of the industry in which you work. The evidence and the facts clearly indicate that were it not for the little jets that you despise and their pilots, many more of you would be currently unemployed.

If you choose to allow yourself to be caught up in the political rhetoric of the union and believe the hype generated by your leaders, there is not much I can do about it. However, you would do well to take a more informed and accurate approach to existing conditions. Instead of believing whatever they tell you and regurgitating their misguided policies, you should consider a true defense of the "profession" rather than the predatory enhancement of your own purse at the expense of others. Had our union chosen to follow the prudent course, you might not be furloughed today. If it corrects its errors tomorrow your return to service might well be sooner than later.

I am pleased that you have found work and in spite of my annoyance with your attitude I still hope that your furlough will be short. You say that it is not about money, it is about principles and politics. Well you're right, that is what it's about. Your principles appear to be misguided, limited to self-interest and your politics flawed.

Yes, the system is broken; yes, it will be difficult to fix it, but that doesn't mean it should not be fixed. I'm not sure what you mean by the "system", but in the context of my usage the system that's broken is the ALPA system. It needs to be restored.

I understand your frustration with the unfortunate furlough, but the fact is that Delta is not currently violating your furlough protection and neither is Delta violating your Scope.

That your furlough protection did not foresee the disaster of 9/11 is not something that could have been avoided. To pretend that the impact of that infamous attack has not seriously affected our industry and is not responsible for the precipitous and sudden decline in airline traffic is unrealistic. I don't expect you to be happy about it, none of us are, but I do expect you to be objective even though it has harmed you. We all suffer as a result and it isn't about YOU, it's about US.

The Company is currently in compliance with your Scope. Do not blame the Company for your union's failure to recognize that an economic downturn resulting in consecutive losses was not only possible but probable. That is your mistake, not the Company's. A contract is indeed a contract and your PWA allows the Company to do what it is doing at this time.

Further, the component of your Scope that relates directly to the operation of Delta's other airline subsidiaries (CMR/ASA) is predatory and deliberately intended to be harmful to us. It represents nothing but greed and selfishness. That is wrong and it needs to be changed. If you wish to maintain CMR/ASA in this artificially "separate" status, then you may not dictate what we do. As long as you continue to try, it will be doomed to failure. Had the union and your leaders written the proper and appropriate Scope, we would be supporting it, not fighting with each other.

As long as three different pilot groups, all flying aircraft owned and operated by the same Company continue to exist, the only form of Scope that will stand is one to which we ALL agree. You simply cannot unilaterally scope away my livelihood whenever you choose. That hasn't worked and it never will. How mad you get about not being able to do that successfully is really not going to fix it.

The RJs have not replaced you. What has happened is really not complex. The larger aircraft that you fly cannot be operated profitably, under existing circumstances, on all of the routes they previously served. The small aircraft that we fly can and do. The RJs are not being put on those routes with the intent of replacing you, their purpose is to help the Company survive the current decline and they are doing just that. Otherwise, many more of you would be furloughed.

The fact that you do not have access to the flying of the RJs is the direct result of your own misguided Scope. If the union had acted sensibly, we would all have access to the flying in accordance with our seniority. You might be flying an RJ as a result of that, but you would not be unemployed, we would. YOU decided that you didn't want it that way and you said in your previous post that you would never want it that way. Well young fellow, you got what you wanted so stop crying in your beer. Remember that saying? "Be careful what you ask for, you might get it."

As for all the rhetoric about DOH integration, that is nonsense. Rhetoric generated by your side, by fearful junior pilots like yourself and fostered both by ALPA National and your MEC for the purpose of furthering their political agendas. It is not in your best interest and it is not in our best interest. It is also not true so give it up. It will not happen, is not intended and was never proposed.

Popularity between our two factions is not necessary to the resolution of the dispute. Unity of our political and negotiating efforts is. The sooner you get off your high horse and acknowledge that we must work together, the sooner we will fix what's broken.

PS. Yes, I might check you for a Scope tie and yes, I might admonish you for wearing one, but I would not deny you my jumpseat even if you were. I don't believe that jumpseat rights should be used for political purposes. To do so is stupid. An overwhelming majority of Comair's pilots share that view. Just like Delta, we have a percentage of a$$holes too. In that you number among those at Delta, you should not be surprised. BTW, since you are 10 times our size, you outnumber us 10 to 1 in the quantity of a_holes among your ranks. Make a note of that.

Good luck to you.

 

[Boeingman]

Roll the trucks!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus Surplus, you burned him to a crisp.