RJDC update 8/20/02

[~~~^~~~]

Excellent discussion of the Delta PWA in light of the current events. Thanks to Surplus and Flying Sig for their efforts.

Fly Delta's Jets: The University of Cincinnati only pegged the number for ALPA's harm at $600,000,000 - so I guess you guys get a break there. But while you are discussing damages, how much to your fellow Delta, non - ALPA member pilots hope to recover from Miller v. ALPA?Another question you will ignore - in your rant against the RJDC actually asking for enforceability of what ever resolution may be reached

The value of the Comair litigation is that it has thus far kept jets for jobs away from the Delta property. The litigation is a deterrent to predatory practices by the Delta MEC, because unlike the US Air Express guys and Eagle, we are prepared for war - we are organized, educated and funded. We see our effort as a valliant fight to save our international union from individual MEC actions that have undermined the solidarity of pilots performing Delta flying. Further, you tell me if the PID had been granted, would you not be better off than you are now?Another question FDJ will ignore

I am assured the RJDC will always remain open to any enforceable offer by ALPA to provide fair representation to ASA and Comair pilots. But until that solution is reached, we would be fools to allow our pilots the same fate as the other wholly owned regionals within ALPA.

I'm pleased that so far ALPA's harm to my career has been limited - everyone knows that was not ALPA's intent. I hope that I continue to enjoy my job without ALPA interference and that I'm never in a position to collect a dime from this union. And you have no clue just how determined we are - you would be better off with us on your side...

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Excellent discussion of the Delta PWA in light of the current events. Thanks to Surplus and Flying Sig for their efforts.

Fly Delta's Jets: The University of Cincinnati only pegged the number for ALPA's harm at $600,000,000 - so I guess you guys get a break there.




---------Get a break??!!! Reread your lawsuit. It is asking for OVER 12 BILLION DOLLARS! That's a bit more than your highly debateable 600 million dollar figure, especially in light of the fact that our ineffective scope has yet to limit even a single hour of rj flying.


But while you are discussing damages, how much to your fellow Delta, non - ALPA member pilots hope to recover from Miller v. ALPA?Another question you will ignore - in your rant against the RJDC actually asking for enforceability of what ever resolution may be reached



--------Rarely do I ignore a question. I am not familiar with Miller vs. ALPA. I will research it and answer your question, but I do not see the relevance. I answered a simple question about what the rjdc is seeking. No rjdc supporter gave an accurate figure, so I did (well over twelve BILLION dollars). I find it ironic that supporters of this lawsuit will not even honestly answer what damages they are seeking. Perhaps they are ashamed?



The value of the Comair litigation is that it has thus far kept jets for jobs away from the Delta property.



---------Your assertion has absolutely no basis in fact. There is no evidence of the DALPA MEC being even remotely interested in such a proposal. As a furloughee who prides himself on keeping abreast (huh, huh, I said breast!) of the issues, I can assure you that no Delta pilot has ever suggested such a proposal. The reason has nothing to do with the rjdc and everything to do with the fact that none of us have the desire or the need to fly for any airline but Delta.




The litigation is a deterrent to predatory practices by the Delta MEC, because unlike the US Air Express guys and Eagle, we are prepared for war - we are organized, educated and funded. We see our effort as a valliant fight to save our international union from individual MEC actions that have undermined the solidarity of pilots performing Delta flying. Further, you tell me if the PID had been granted, would you not be better off than you are now?Another question FDJ will ignore




----------A. I don't ignore questions. Sometimes I think I should.
B. I can honestly tell you, after a not insignificant amount of thought, that I do not feel I would be at all better than I am now had the PID been granted. The reason? We do not have the power to combine the lists, and Delta is committed to keeping them separate. Do you honestly think that the lists would be merged today had the PID been granted?



I am assured the RJDC will always remain open to any enforceable offer by ALPA to provide fair representation to ASA and Comair pilots. But until that solution is reached, we would be fools to allow our pilots the same fate as the other wholly owned regionals within ALPA.


--------You are already getting perfectly fair representation. I feel that a judge will eventually concur.


I'm pleased that so far ALPA's harm to my career has been limited


-------Limited???!!!!! May I suggest "non-existent?"




- everyone knows that was not ALPA's intent. I hope that I continue to enjoy my job without ALPA interference and that I'm never in a position to collect a dime from this union.


---------You already have.


And you have no clue just how determined we are - you would be better off with us on your side...

I concur. Unfortunately, you have decided to secede.

Here's a couple of questions for you.

1) Are you or are you not supporting a lawsuit that has requested that a judge award them over 12 billion dollars from ALPA.

2) Did you quote a study that estimates the "potential" damages at only 600 million, less than 5% of the damages sought.


P.S.
The toe fungus is in remission!

 

[JohnDoe]

Thanks for the responses on the $ amounts....

If those dollar figures are accurate, I have to ask:

I have seen several rjdc supporters say that it's "not about the money." Ok. If it isn't, then why are you seeking such a HUGE settlement?? If the contract and representation issues are decided in your favor, why not just recoup your court and legal costs? I find it hard to believe that money isn't in the equation when the amount sought is so large.

I'm interested in hearing the supporters justification for those $$ amounts.

 

[surplus1]

Thanks for the responses on the $ amounts....

If those dollar figures are accurate, I have to ask:

I have seen several rjdc supporters say that it's "not about the money." Ok. If it isn't, then why are you seeking such a HUGE settlement?? If the contract and representation issues are decided in your favor, why not just recoup your court and legal costs? I find it hard to believe that money isn't in the equation when the amount sought is so large.

I'm interested in hearing the supporters justification for those $$ amounts.

Hello JohnDoe,

I'm one of the evil supporters of the RJDC. Before I get carried away, I'd like to say this. Perhaps we might all benefit if we spent 1/2 of the time that we spend arguing, in a joint effort to resolve the issues that seem to devide us. What we really need are solutions, not more arguments. It is unfortunate that one side seems to have great interest in disputing and defeating the RJDC, but littlle if any interest in finding a solution. As usual, it's "their way or the highway". Unproductive.

Here's some ideas related to your questions. More argument, no solution.

First: Don't believe everything you read, including the gospel according to FDJ and the gospel according to RJDC. Go to the web site, read the actual lawsuit and make your own interpretation.

Second: FDJ makes several "assumptions", ALL of which are his opinions and ALL of which are his interpretations of what a court "might" award at some point in the future. He puts those assumptions out as "facts" in support of his own arguments. Please note that the "facts according to FDJ" are not necessarily the facts. Neither are the "facts according to Surplus1". If you are interested, study the subject matter and form your own opinions.

For FDJ to be anywhere close to accurate in his assumptions, means that the courts would have to rule in favor of the RJDC on each and every one of the counts in the litigation. The courts would also have to award exactly what the RJDC has claimed, in full and separately, on each and every one of the counts. Next, the courts would have to determine that every single pilot on the Comair seniority list is entitled to and awarded the full amount of the claims on each of the six counts in the suit (not withstanding that there are "only" 300 named litigants to date).

FDJ is "angry" because he personally has become a victim of the economic downturn and is furloughed. He has chosen to focus that anger on the RJDC lawsuit apparently because (I'm not really sure why) doing so gives him a ready target at which to direct his frustrations. Perhaps the FDJ attack willl damage or destroy the RJDC (not likely) but, if it should, FDJ is likely to discover in the aftermath that he attacked the wrong target and destroyed it with "friendly fire". Meanwhile, the real enemy escapes unscathed, and his personal dilemma remains unsolved.

FDJ, does lots of reasearch and is well informed. His arguments are all plausible and therfore gain much attention. One might easily think "this is good". However, the basic premise underlying all of these arguments is flawed. As a result, all of the "facts" are skewed in support of a premise that is itself, way off the mark.

1)The regional jets (defended by the RJDC) are NOT responsible for the furlough of any Delta pilot.
2)The RJDC is NOT responsible for the furlough of any Delta pilot.
3) Elimination of every regional jet from the Delta property, will NOT return even one furloughed Delta pilot to work.
4) Defeat of the RJDC will NOT return one furloughed Delta pilot to work.
5) Granting the ALPA relief from this litigation will NOT return any furloughed Delta pilot to work.

IF the above 5 points are accurate, FDJ's relentless assault on the RJDC will not benefit him one iota. What then is the motivation or reason for the crusade? Is it the fervent and high-minded belief that his "union" is flawless and being maligned? I understand what he is attacking, but what exactly is he defending?

If the litigation is without merit, as he alleges, will the courts not simply dismiss it and end the dispute? IF the ALPA is totally innocent of any wrong doing, won't the ALPA be exonerated?

If the litigants believe they have been wronged and damanged, but in fact the courts determine they have not, will the ALPA not be found "not guilty"? Does FDJ believe that persons who feel they have been injured, should not have access to the courts? What alternative to litigation would FDJ recommend? Should Comair pilots that believe they have been wronged simply shut up and go away, because FDJ believes they have not?

I repeat that I am a supporter of the RJDC. I believe that their grievance is justiified. I know that they have sought to resolve those grievances, internally within the ALPA and have been ignored repeatedly. Therefore, I also believe that not only do they have a right to seek redress in the courts, but that is the only legal method available to them. I am prejudiced in their favor and acknowledge it. Who's favor is FDJ prejudiced in? Is FDJ unbiased and objective?

Do my beliefs make me wrong and FDJ right? Do FDJ's beliefs make him wrong and me right? Somehow I don't think so.

What we have here is a legitimate and unresolved dispute between a labor union and a significant number of its members. Like any other dispute between two parties, it can be settled out of court or in court. To date, the ALPA and the RJDC have both chosen to proceed to the courts. When its over, one will prevail and the other will not. That is the system that our country recognizes for the settlement of legal disputes. Why can't FDJ recognize that system as well?

Perhaps I have not answered you basic question of why the monetary amounts of the claims are so high. The answer is quite simple really. IF the ALPA prevails in the pursuit of the practices that affect Comair pilots adversely, every Comair pilot is exposed to the potential loss of more than a million dollars over the life of his career. That is why we seek recompense. If and when the factors that cause this potential loss are withdrawn, the need for compensation will also go away. The punitive damages sought are designed to preclude the ALPA from engaging in such practices in the future. A slap on the rist won't do that. One hundred million dollars just might.

I sincerely hope we can ultimately work together and find a mutually satisfactory solution to our differences.

Surplus1
CMR

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

.

First: Don't believe everything you read, including the gospel according to FDJ and the gospel according to RJDC. Go to the web site, read the actual lawsuit and make your own interpretation.



-------I agree. Read complaints VIII, IX, X, XI, XII, and XIII. All ask for "not less than $2,000,000 for each CMR pilot. You will find not gospel, but actual language from the suit.



Second: FDJ makes several "assumptions", ALL of which are his opinions and ALL of which are his interpretations of what a court "might" award at some point in the future. He puts those assumptions out as "facts" in support of his own arguments. Please note that the "facts according to FDJ" are not necessarily the facts. Neither are the "facts according to Surplus1". If you are interested, study the subject matter and form your own opinions.


---------Actually, I made no assumptions. I simply used facts to answer a question. I did not offer opinion (rare for me). I simply answered John Doe's question of how much the rjdc is seeking from ALPA in its suit. Your suit contains language asking for over 12 billion dollars. That is not a "fact," it is a fact.



For FDJ to be anywhere close to accurate in his assumptions, means that the courts would have to rule in favor of the RJDC on each and every one of the counts in the litigation. The courts would also have to award exactly what the RJDC has claimed, in full and separately, on each and every one of the counts. Next, the courts would have to determine that every single pilot on the Comair seniority list is entitled to and awarded the full amount of the claims on each of the six counts in the suit (not withstanding that there are "only" 300 named litigants to date).




-------Read the suit again surplus. It asks for 12 million for every cmr ALPA pilot. It says nothing about named litigants. Also, I did not say how much I think you will get (zero), I simply answered the question of what you are asking for.



FDJ is "angry" because he personally has become a victim of the economic downturn and is furloughed. He has chosen to focus that anger on the RJDC lawsuit apparently because (I'm not really sure why) doing so gives him a ready target at which to direct his frustrations.

-------Your assumption is incorrect. I have been angry with the rjdc long before my furlough, even when my carreer was proceeding perfectly. I am angry with the rjdc not because of what has happened to me, but what will happen to all of us if they succeed.



Perhaps the FDJ attack willl damage or destroy the RJDC (not likely) but, if it should, FDJ is likely to discover in the aftermath that he attacked the wrong target and destroyed it with "friendly fire". Meanwhile, the real enemy escapes unscathed, and his personal dilemma remains unsolved.


------My fight against the rjdc does not preclude me from fighting on other fronts as well.


1)The regional jets (defended by the RJDC) are NOT responsible for the furlough of any Delta pilot.

-----Never said they were. P.S. You don't need to defend something that faces no threat.

2)The RJDC is NOT responsible for the furlough of any Delta pilot.

-------Never said it was.


3) Elimination of every regional jet from the Delta property, will NOT return even one furloughed Delta pilot to work.

-------Never said it would.

4) Defeat of the RJDC will NOT return one furloughed Delta pilot to work.

--------Never said it would.

5) Granting the ALPA relief from this litigation will NOT return any furloughed Delta pilot to work.

------Never said it would.

IF the above 5 points are accurate, FDJ's relentless assault on the RJDC will not benefit him one iota.

-------It will allow me to keep my contract intact.

What then is the motivation or reason for the crusade? Is it the fervent and high-minded belief that his "union" is flawless and being maligned? I understand what he is attacking, but what exactly is he defending?

-------Have you ever read any of my posts? Do you really require me to rehash why I think the rjdc is a major threat? I have done so too many times to count.

If the litigation is without merit, as he alleges, will the courts not simply dismiss it and end the dispute? IF the ALPA is totally innocent of any wrong doing, won't the ALPA be exonerated?

------I believe that they will. I am not content to trust the courts to make the right decision.

If the litigants believe they have been wronged and damanged, but in fact the courts determine they have not, will the ALPA not be found "not guilty"? Does FDJ believe that persons who feel they have been injured, should not have access to the courts? What alternative to litigation would FDJ recommend? Should Comair pilots that believe they have been wronged simply shut up and go away, because FDJ believes they have not?


----I have been through this. I fully support your right to sue to have a judge review whether or not the PID proceedings were legal. I do not support them seeking over 12 billion in damages, and I do not support the assault on my contract.

I repeat that I am a supporter of the RJDC. I believe that their grievance is justiified. I know that they have sought to resolve those grievances, internally within the ALPA and have been ignored repeatedly. Therefore, I also believe that not only do they have a right to seek redress in the courts, but that is the only legal method available to them. I am prejudiced in their favor and acknowledge it. Who's favor is FDJ prejudiced in? Is FDJ unbiased and objective?

------No, I am very biased in favor of strong scope clauses. I firmly believe that they are the final defence mgt's assault on our professions, and I firmly believe that the ambiguous language of the rjdc puts EVERY scope clause in the country at risk.

Do my beliefs make me wrong and FDJ right? Do FDJ's beliefs make him wrong and me right? Somehow I don't think so.

-------Yes and no!

What we have here is a legitimate and unresolved dispute between a labor union and a significant number of its members. Like any other dispute between two parties, it can be settled out of court or in court. To date, the ALPA and the RJDC have both chosen to proceed to the courts. When its over, one will prevail and the other will not. That is the system that our country recognizes for the settlement of legal disputes. Why can't FDJ recognize that system as well?

----See my above explanation to a similar point.

Perhaps I have not answered you basic question of why the monetary amounts of the claims are so high. The answer is quite simple really. IF the ALPA prevails in the pursuit of the practices that affect Comair pilots adversely, every Comair pilot is exposed to the potential loss of more than a million dollars over the life of his career.

-----You are asking for 12 million for each comair pilot. Can you show any damages right now? You are asking for them.

The punitive damages sought are designed to preclude the ALPA from engaging in such practices in the future. A slap on the rist won't do that. One hundred million dollars just might.


----Try $12 BILLION.

I sincerely hope we can ultimately work together and find a mutually satisfactory solution to our differences.

Surplus1
CMR

---As do I.

 

[FlyingSig]

FDJ is "angry" because he personally has become a victim of the economic downturn and is furloughed.

Interesting language in that quote. I thought we were furloughed due to circumstances beyond the control of Delta. If it were an ecconomic downturn, well, then that would be an illegal furlough..... ok , I digress.....

 

[surplus1]

Interesting language in that quote. I thought we were furloughed due to circumstances beyond the control of Delta. If it were an ecconomic downturn, well, then that would be an illegal furlough..... ok , I digress.....

Aren't you being just a tad facetious? It seems to me that most everyone knows or ought to know that the economic impact of 9/11 has been monumental. We can pretend all we want that it "would have happened anyway", and perhaps it would have to a mild extent. This huge decline, particularly in the airlines is directly related to what occured on that fateful day and it's far from over.

The circumstance is the key issue. We all regret that it happened but your Company isn't wrong about that and neither was the arbitrator.

 

[~~~^~~~]

FDJ:

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. To answer your questions - yes, I support the RJDC and feel the lawsuit is necessary as long as ALPA ignores (and sometimes goes out of their way) to harm members in violation of the Union's Constitution and Bylaws. The union should not be allowed to enter into negotiations with the same employer and favor one employee over another - that practice is discriminatory, arbitrary and is blatant bad faith. Second - since ALPA will not modify their actions voluntarily, they must be made to change. The more compelling reason we can provide, the more likely it is that ALPA will repair the issues that divide our union.

ALPA is capable of causing much more harm than the union is worth, in practical dollar terms. The effect of denying the PID, Jets for Jobs, and other ALPA mistakes easily exceeds the net worth of the union. That is why ALPA should use its power conservatively and not allow activist MECs to run over other ALPA members - by using their exclusive bargaining agent status to unfairly harm smaller pilots at MEC groups.

Just read the union's Consitution and Bylaws. Is it too much to ask that the union simply obey its own rules?

Going to the BOD this year?

P.S. We should have a lot more to talk about after the 26th. Good luck to you guys - and to us as well - we may need it.

 

[surplus1]

FlyDeltasJets

You know what FDJ; this argument is really pointless. We should be talking about possible ways to solve the problems and settle our differences. Instead, we are arguing like schoolboys (I'm just as guilty as you are) about words, dollars and meaningless other baloney while we posture and kick sand at each other.

Either there is a conflict and a problem between our groups or there isn't. Either you want it solved or you don't. The whole thing is really that simple.

If you want the problem solved, then we sit down as equals and work together until we come up with a solution that we both can live with.

If you do NOT want the problem solved, then we continue to fight with each other until one of us prevails over the other. Today my side is fighting with a lawsuit and one lawyer. You are fighting with your PR department and a host of high paid lawyers. Tomorrow it will get worse and the war will grow until somebody can declare a victory.

Really, it's up to you guys. We are doing what we need to do right now. You can continue to complain about it as much as you please. That is NOT going to solve anything. What is needed is a binding and enforceable solution that is mutually agreed.

With a little bit of common sense, we could turn this dispute into a win/win solution, but we can't force you to do that. We have offered and, up until now, you have refused to talk. If you choose to continue the battle, ultimately there will be a winner and a loser.

Just remember, "the bigger they are, the harder they fall."

 

[Tim47SIP]

The last man statnding

Surplus, I personally believe that they (Delta mainline-you told me not to use DALPA) have absolutely no intention of changing anything. It strikes me as "odd" that only the regional guys are really trying to come up with any type of plan to help. Not once have I read or heard of any mainline guy initiating a plan to fix the current situation and get their guys back on the tarmack. I think that they are so set in their above thou thinking that things will continue until only one person is standing. They would all die before mingling with the likes of the regional slime. They say that they have no intention to take any type of pay reduction to get their guys off the street so that they can preserve the industry. Well, that is awfully brave of them to have to suck it up and collect those paychecks while their guys are on the street. They blame the regional pilots for being whores and working for low wages which is causing their current problems. They refuse (other than FDJ) to site blame with the competition of the low cost carriers that employ the low cost pilots and sell those super low cost tickets. They negotiate damaging restrictions upon their management in order to preserve their flying which does nothing but hurts the bottom line (read-profits). They refuse to believe that the industry is changing around them and will one day wake up and yell "Hey, wait for me!"Today is the 26th and I believe the day Delta announces it's restructuring plan. I can only imagine how the mainline guys are going to try and get their guys back on the pay roll. I seriously dought that anything (consessions) reqiured by management to accomplish this will come from the mainline sides. Wonder where they will come from.

 

[surplus1]

Much of what you say is not too far off target. Whether Delta's mainline pilots will seek to resolve the issues that divide them from Delta's regional pilots is highly doubtful.

As it stands ALPA and the DMEC are both in denial. They seem to have decided that the only "problem" in all of this is the regional pilot group itself and there is nothing they ought to do, other than get rid of it. In their view, whatever they do is OK and there is no reason for them to modify their behavior.

They never make comments on any suggested solution nor do they offer any soloution of their own and I don't expect they will. When you do not want a "solution" and prefer to make war, talk of peace is a waste of time.

From their perspective the only needed solution is a better way to get rid of the regional pilots who ARE the problem. What they've done at USAir Group is a pretty good indicator of their intentions. If it works there, they will try it elsewhere. It's only a matter of time and opportunity.

[ALPA] " . . . a master manipulator who will twist and dodge around the clock to keep the privileges of power and pelf." -- Nick Cohen, "Without prejudice"

 

[skydiverdriver]

Do people actually believe that the low cost carriers are the reason for their problems? Aren't they just giving the consumer what they want? Perhaps it's the large full-fare airlines fault for not coming up with a similar plan themselves. Oh, wait, I guess some have tried, and most have failed.

One question for the major guys, if your company offered you a contract that paid you the highest rates in the industry, but also guaranteed the company would go out of business, would you sign it? How about if that contract would guarantee many of your junior fellows would be furloughed? One person said that Delta could replace the entire airline with RJ's. Well, I'm not sure that an RJ could fly overseas very well, not without a fuel stop anyway. There will always be a need for larger jets, and more small jets mean more people flying in the large jets.

 

[Otto]

Well said Skydiver. Guess what? There were furloughs before the RJ! Yes...hard to believe but it's true! It's tough to blame something faceless like the economy (the true culprit), so the regional guys are just scapegoats. Mainline guys are on the street...just like MANY of those who have gone before them in years past. How often do you meet a senior guy at a major who has never been furloughed in his career? Rarely. Furloughed guys talk about their routes being replaced by RJs but in years past, many of these routes would simply have been eliminated when the economy took a dip. I'm all for pilots being well paid but scope and contract restrictions simply don't work. Ultimately the market will decide what will happen. I think the guys at the majors need to embrace their regional brothers as it may be the only thing that allows their airlines to compete with the likes of Airtran and Southwest. God forbid a carrier should be able to put a plane on a route that matches the demand! Some may not like what I'm saying and I wish it weren't true myself...I'd love all pilots to make a million a year but it's not economic reality and it's time to face the music. The purpose of an airline is to provide a service to the consumer and to make money...not to provide pilots with the highest paying jobs possible. This whole idea of trying to preserve the status quo is downright absurd and borderline socialism. Go ahead DALPA...try to keep things the same... I'd hate to see my favorite major fall to bankruptcy. Change or die...because the market is changing and it always wins.

 

[NYRANGERS]

[It's a tough fight, and I am not so sure we will turn out so good on this one.

Otto, if you are not allready at Delta, I am afraid it may be a very long time before you get your chance (if ever).

I think the furloughed pilots will have to be brought back in the semi near future, but hiring is so far off that I won't try to hazzard a guess.

You may be able to go to Comair or ASA, but even they are under attact from a lower common denominator.

I hope I am wrong, good luck..

 

[skydiverdriver]

Hay rangers, don't take this the wrong way, but why do you post the last guy's entire message in your post? It seems to me that anyone who wants to read it again can go up one post, so it seems like a waste of space to me.

I'm not sure why you say that Comair is under attack by a lower common denominator. I'm sure you are talking about the Chataqua thing in MCO, but they aren't restricting our growth. Some Comair pilots are upset that they have to move, but we are growing and hiring, and their flying for Delta doesn't affect us at all. It's the same way Comair and ASA flying doesn't hurt Delta pilots, it inhances it. Better to have an rj flying to some city that couldn't support a larger jet, than to have nobody going there from our company and let the competition take our passengers. I have heard that some people call the rj a replacement jet. It should be a trc, temporary replacement jet.