goldentrout
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2001
- Posts
- 116
All right guys...
My statements were a vision of how it should be. There would obviously be short term issues whne seniority lists integrate. But in the long run, if we had a system where all DAL pilots came in at the botton and flew an RJ, all the stuff going on with scope, RJDC, etc., would be a mute point.
First off let me say I am not an RJDC plaintiff, but I agree iwth their main point htat there is a conflict of interest at ALPA.
TIM47 SIP
We're not interested in a staple...that's just a flow back system. However, pilot lists have been intgretated before with fences, etc. Sure, the initial stages of integration would be sticky. But starting tomorrow, everyone who gets hired at DAL ought to start out on one list, at the bottom, in an RJ and work his/her way up from there. For the future, that would put an end to all this scope/RJDC stuff.
Sir, maybe you missed it, but many pilot groups are being forced to accept reduced compensation, just to keep their companies afloat, i.e. US Air, UAL, etc.
Also, the market will cause it's own reduced compensation. Airlines that cannot compete because of bloated overhead will not be around very long.
Metro Sheriff
What I say has nothing to do with the RJDC. It is economic reality.
1. The Wall Street Journal agrees with me.
2. About every aviation industry analyst agrees with me that the major airline business model is broken and not sustainable.
3. UAL and US Air are in/near bankruptcy...no banks would loan them any money, so they had to go to the government. The government told them to bring down their overhead, or no money. The only place they can really save a bunch of money is with labor. Everything else is a fixed cost.
4. You won't see a new Boeing or new Airbus at a major airline for along time...meanwhile, Bombardier and Embraer (sic) can't make their product fast enough.
5. SWA/AirTran are making a profit. ACA's stock shot through the roof last week. ASA/Comair, by themselves, are very profitable, and are basically plugging the breach in the DAL dam.
FlyingSIG
I don't want your job. It distresses me greatly that you and your family are suffering the effects of a furlough. If DAL could make money flying a bunch more 737/757/767 etc., great! The better DAL does, the better things will be for me at Comair in the long run.
If DAL could buy 100 737s today, stop all their RJ orders, and make money...I wouldn't be totally thrilled, but I'd realize that more maniline flying eventually means more feed needed for mainline. That means more RJs at Comair, and more potential jobs at DAL.
Problems is DAL can't make a profit with 100 new 737s, but they can with 100 new RJs!
Yea, if your were on one list DOH, you'd be flying an RJ. But you'd have 1000 or so guys underneath you. You'd still be flying. You'd be holding a line. You'd only be working 15 days or so a month. You'd still have money going into your B-fund. You'd have dental/medical care. And you'd still be in line for the bigger equipment someday.
NY Rangers
Sir, you didn't read my post. I said "Why do you still cling to the ALPA strategy that has helped (I said helped now, not TOTALLY responsible for) put 2 major airlines into bankruptcy, and put thousands of you on the street, with no prospect for recall anytime in the forseeable future?"
Pilot/FA/mechanic compensation all needs to come down. Here are some other money saving ideas.
1. Buy a bunch of 70/90 seat RJs that can be filled up to a 60-70% load factor, and make money for the company, instead of "wishing" that the traffic would return for the 737/757/767.
2. Make compensation tied to company performance. Benefits should be such that the company can make it through a few years of bad times, without breaking the bank. Then, profit sharing happens in the good times. If you look at the SWA compensation model, those guys, with their 1999 profit share, made just as much as a DAL 737 captain with the same seniority.
3. Change some ridiculous work rules. There are guys at UAL I know who get paid 20-25K a month to sit at home. The current work rules say if you bid vacation, and it touches a trip, the trip is dropped, no loss of pay. So they bid days of vacation next to their trips, and then the whole month is dropped! How can we ask a company to pay us that kind of cash to sit at home and do nothing?
Sir you say I'm simple minded. I say I'm focused...meaning I've put aside all the irelevant issues about scope/RJDC etc, and am focusing on the reality of today's and the future airline industry business model that will work...the Wall Street Journal...the government loan board...and most aviation analysts just happen to agree with me.
None of you have refuted any of my points about market forces, independent analysts opinions, etc. All you do is talk about the way things "ought to be," what seems "fair," that I'm "simple minded."
Simple minded is trying to wish one's desires for reality into being, instead of analyzing reality and coming up with a viable plan from there.
You know guys, this is not about me and my job at Comair. I'm trying to find a way to get flyingsig a job on a DAL seniority list! But doing so requires dealing with reality...not wishing things could be different. I can only find solutions with facts...wishes will not put flyingsig in a cockpit, and money in his bank account.
This is about finding a way to stabilize the industry so we can all have a job, with decent (not excessive) compensation, at a company that consistenly makes a profit.
As I said above, if DAL could make a profit with 100 new 737s, and that meant less RJs in the short term...more power to them...and more power to all the DAL pilots on and off furlough if they can make this happen...they can't...so we need a plan B...that's what I'm trying to do.
While we sit around and debate this issue,
...AirTran/SWA/JetBlue/Frontier are making money and licking their chops at the prospect of picking up more market share as the majors lose billions, fire thousands...more...employees and cut flying.
Time and actual events will tell who is right in this debate. I would say time since 9/11, and recent/current/projected events, are currently on my side.
Every month more major airline employees are being fired. Every month more RJs are showing up on our properties. Every quarter the major airlines are losing millions. The loan board just rejected UAL's request because it was not based on sound economics. The major airlines are deferring their big plane orders and buying RJs as fast as they can be made. ASA/Comair/ACA/SWA etc. are hiring pilots and other employees for actual and projected growth.
Please show me the events/facts that support your vision of a different view than mine of the current and future airline industry.
My statements were a vision of how it should be. There would obviously be short term issues whne seniority lists integrate. But in the long run, if we had a system where all DAL pilots came in at the botton and flew an RJ, all the stuff going on with scope, RJDC, etc., would be a mute point.
First off let me say I am not an RJDC plaintiff, but I agree iwth their main point htat there is a conflict of interest at ALPA.
TIM47 SIP
We're not interested in a staple...that's just a flow back system. However, pilot lists have been intgretated before with fences, etc. Sure, the initial stages of integration would be sticky. But starting tomorrow, everyone who gets hired at DAL ought to start out on one list, at the bottom, in an RJ and work his/her way up from there. For the future, that would put an end to all this scope/RJDC stuff.
Sir, maybe you missed it, but many pilot groups are being forced to accept reduced compensation, just to keep their companies afloat, i.e. US Air, UAL, etc.
Also, the market will cause it's own reduced compensation. Airlines that cannot compete because of bloated overhead will not be around very long.
Metro Sheriff
What I say has nothing to do with the RJDC. It is economic reality.
1. The Wall Street Journal agrees with me.
2. About every aviation industry analyst agrees with me that the major airline business model is broken and not sustainable.
3. UAL and US Air are in/near bankruptcy...no banks would loan them any money, so they had to go to the government. The government told them to bring down their overhead, or no money. The only place they can really save a bunch of money is with labor. Everything else is a fixed cost.
4. You won't see a new Boeing or new Airbus at a major airline for along time...meanwhile, Bombardier and Embraer (sic) can't make their product fast enough.
5. SWA/AirTran are making a profit. ACA's stock shot through the roof last week. ASA/Comair, by themselves, are very profitable, and are basically plugging the breach in the DAL dam.
FlyingSIG
I don't want your job. It distresses me greatly that you and your family are suffering the effects of a furlough. If DAL could make money flying a bunch more 737/757/767 etc., great! The better DAL does, the better things will be for me at Comair in the long run.
If DAL could buy 100 737s today, stop all their RJ orders, and make money...I wouldn't be totally thrilled, but I'd realize that more maniline flying eventually means more feed needed for mainline. That means more RJs at Comair, and more potential jobs at DAL.
Problems is DAL can't make a profit with 100 new 737s, but they can with 100 new RJs!
Yea, if your were on one list DOH, you'd be flying an RJ. But you'd have 1000 or so guys underneath you. You'd still be flying. You'd be holding a line. You'd only be working 15 days or so a month. You'd still have money going into your B-fund. You'd have dental/medical care. And you'd still be in line for the bigger equipment someday.
NY Rangers
Sir, you didn't read my post. I said "Why do you still cling to the ALPA strategy that has helped (I said helped now, not TOTALLY responsible for) put 2 major airlines into bankruptcy, and put thousands of you on the street, with no prospect for recall anytime in the forseeable future?"
Pilot/FA/mechanic compensation all needs to come down. Here are some other money saving ideas.
1. Buy a bunch of 70/90 seat RJs that can be filled up to a 60-70% load factor, and make money for the company, instead of "wishing" that the traffic would return for the 737/757/767.
2. Make compensation tied to company performance. Benefits should be such that the company can make it through a few years of bad times, without breaking the bank. Then, profit sharing happens in the good times. If you look at the SWA compensation model, those guys, with their 1999 profit share, made just as much as a DAL 737 captain with the same seniority.
3. Change some ridiculous work rules. There are guys at UAL I know who get paid 20-25K a month to sit at home. The current work rules say if you bid vacation, and it touches a trip, the trip is dropped, no loss of pay. So they bid days of vacation next to their trips, and then the whole month is dropped! How can we ask a company to pay us that kind of cash to sit at home and do nothing?
Sir you say I'm simple minded. I say I'm focused...meaning I've put aside all the irelevant issues about scope/RJDC etc, and am focusing on the reality of today's and the future airline industry business model that will work...the Wall Street Journal...the government loan board...and most aviation analysts just happen to agree with me.
None of you have refuted any of my points about market forces, independent analysts opinions, etc. All you do is talk about the way things "ought to be," what seems "fair," that I'm "simple minded."
Simple minded is trying to wish one's desires for reality into being, instead of analyzing reality and coming up with a viable plan from there.
You know guys, this is not about me and my job at Comair. I'm trying to find a way to get flyingsig a job on a DAL seniority list! But doing so requires dealing with reality...not wishing things could be different. I can only find solutions with facts...wishes will not put flyingsig in a cockpit, and money in his bank account.
This is about finding a way to stabilize the industry so we can all have a job, with decent (not excessive) compensation, at a company that consistenly makes a profit.
As I said above, if DAL could make a profit with 100 new 737s, and that meant less RJs in the short term...more power to them...and more power to all the DAL pilots on and off furlough if they can make this happen...they can't...so we need a plan B...that's what I'm trying to do.
While we sit around and debate this issue,
...AirTran/SWA/JetBlue/Frontier are making money and licking their chops at the prospect of picking up more market share as the majors lose billions, fire thousands...more...employees and cut flying.
Time and actual events will tell who is right in this debate. I would say time since 9/11, and recent/current/projected events, are currently on my side.
Every month more major airline employees are being fired. Every month more RJs are showing up on our properties. Every quarter the major airlines are losing millions. The loan board just rejected UAL's request because it was not based on sound economics. The major airlines are deferring their big plane orders and buying RJs as fast as they can be made. ASA/Comair/ACA/SWA etc. are hiring pilots and other employees for actual and projected growth.
Please show me the events/facts that support your vision of a different view than mine of the current and future airline industry.
