RJDC/ALPA settle...

[Turtle21]

For unity's sake,

~~~^~~~

There is no unity apart from seniority.

ALPA sells unity but is nothing more than an expensive, standing arbitration pass through scheme.

 

[PCL_128]

How much did the RJDC circus cost ALPA? <b><i><u>In other words HOW much of my dues money did it cost?

It's not so much the money as it is the resources that were wasted. Yes, some money was wasted on defending against this nonsense, but the indispensable resources that had to be used were the biggest loss. Guys like Bruce York, Bill Couette, Jim Wilson, and many others were wasting time in NY on this silly lawsuit while they could have been attending to things to actually benefit the profession and the Association. I know for a fact that Captain Couette has been spending a lot of time away from Herndon over the past 9 months devoting time to this ridiculous lawsuit. This is the VP-Admin. He has real work to do, but instead, Dan Ford and his cronies are wasting his time on meaningless bullsh&^. I'm just glad that these guys will be able to get back to the real work instead of having their attention diverted by a few guys with an inferiority complex who are mad because the big, mean mainline pilots don't like them.

 

[737 Pylt]

PCL128 has anotoned for his "mistakes" at GIA, whatever that means.
quote]

Whatever that means? It's called "whoreing yourself". This is someone even beneath the SCAB level on the labor scale. On a recent Skybus thread, Mr skywhor..uh..PCL..himself stated that folks like Skybus pilots should be "spit on". He wants to "spit on" pilots just because they are getting paid money for their labor. He instead paid the airline a salary so he could be a "pretend co-pilot" to pad his logbook. Did you understand that? HE PAID THE AIRLINE!! FOR A FRIGGIN JOB!! Talk about a scourge within your midst! Sheesh.ukeSee post on 10/19/2007 at 02:03 #117 on Skybus)

All this coming from some a'hole who signed a $40,000 training bond!uke:

737

 

[~~~^~~~]

Which goes to show that the RJDC was a reactionary, knee-jerk action based on career expectations gone south due to the economic downturn exacerbated by 9-11. Not ALPA.

Not true. The RJDC was born out of ALPA's actions in 1999 and the 2000 BOD meeting. The ALPA members involved, including me, wanted their representative seated at the table when matters of their pay and working conditions were being negotiated. ALPA ignored on their own Constitution and Admin Manual, then locked my Rep's out of the negotiations. Without any RJ drivers at the table, Delta sold flying out to the lowest bidder.

At the time the economy was going great guns, Delta hired 30+ a month from ASA on average and Delta ordered 10 billion dollars worth of RJ's. It is hard to say this was born out of economics. It was born out of a need for representation, but that was never a sexy enough topic to capture anyone's interest.

When I tried to explain "whipsaw" people literally called me crazy and labelled me "Chicken Little." In fact nobody really seemed to understand until SkyWest and Delta illustrated the threat by transferring flying to non-union pilots. At ASA, it was a flat out airplane and base transfer.

No, CMR and ASA were not responsible for selling out Delta's flying. We did that to ourselves. And frankly, once we give away an aircraft, I don't care who flies it. So if CMR or ASA wants to get scope saying they will fly all the 70 seaters, or something like that, more power to you.

Michael (and I appreciate his candor) illustrates the point for me. Once ALPA decided to send this flying out side the protection of mainline, it went to the lowest bidder, which effects our profession negatively.

Even mainline is not immune - currently one of, if not the, lowest bidder for big RJ flying is the Delta PWA. Has anyone seen Compass' rates? Anyone know what NWA's DC-9 pilots might find themselves flying?

Do any of us want a profession where it takes a Delta pilot ten to fifteen years to break even on leaving a small jet carrier? At Continental it would have taken me 10 to 12 years to break even (barring a super junior EWR upgrade)

This settlement was a win / win. The major pilots got rid of a threat while not ceeding any power. The coordination between ALPA members holds the key to working together to improve our profession.

Consider that, informally, much of this coordination between MECs had gone on behind the scenes at ALPA. If they were doing it voluntarily, it must have been because it benefitted the participants. It was only when inner-ALPA political battles erupted that this coordination and spirit of cooperation broke down. The mainline pilots liked the control and leverage they had over the small jet pilots and things only got ugly between the Delta and Comair pilots when the Comair MEC broke out of the pact.

This sort of coordination worked before and will provide a benefit again.

 

[PuffDriver]

Back your old self again, I see. This settlement does nothing. It looks to me like the RJDC was running out of money, quickly.

So let's see, Delta has to notify Comair of it's opener.

Delta can talk to Comair about it's scope, or not.

ALPA appoints yet another bilateral scope committee who has no authority to negoiate on behalf of the Delta pilots.

Unequivical victory for the Delta MEC, and the RJDC lawyer.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I'll spare you further embarrassment.

TOO FUNNY!!

"Embarrassment" lives in the pitiless souls of RJDC losers who Declare Victory after they quit.

Like a yippy little mutt that stops humping someone's leg, then proclaims "I pounded those Dockers good!"

Haber cashed the checks, Loser. He's richer now...while you're gonna need a loan to cover your needs.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It's not so much the money as it is the resources that were wasted. Yes, some money was wasted on defending against this nonsense, but the indispensable resources that had to be used were the biggest loss. Guys like Bruce York, Bill Couette, Jim Wilson, and many others were wasting time in NY on this silly lawsuit while they could have been attending to things to actually benefit the profession and the Association. I know for a fact that Captain Couette has been spending a lot of time away from Herndon over the past 9 months devoting time to this ridiculous lawsuit. This is the VP-Admin. He has real work to do, but instead, Dan Ford and his cronies are wasting his time on meaningless bullsh&^. I'm just glad that these guys will be able to get back to the real work instead of having their attention diverted by a few guys with an inferiority complex who are mad because the big, mean mainline pilots don't like them.

Yeah... and where does the cabbage come from to cover the expenses and resources!! And we aren't talking Georgie and Abe.....

 

[Occam's Razor]

Not true. The RJDC was born out of ALPA's actions in 1999 and the 2000 BOD meeting. The ALPA members involved, including me, wanted their representative seated at the table when matters of their pay and working conditions were being negotiated.

I was there. What you wanted was your pay and work rules negotiated by the mainline.

Since the only limits of Scope were the size of the aircraft, not pay and work rules, the objective of the RJDC toads was to

1. Have someone do their heavy lifting for them.
2. Score a number on the mainline list.

I was involved in the process as a mainline pilot interested in getting something called "brand scope"...where all the flying would be done by the mainline and it's direct affiliates. When we heard the shrill, irrational argument that we were limiting pay and work rules, we pointed out a fact that the RJDC still refuses to understand: Pay and work rules aren't set by Scope...they're set by the leverage and will of the pilot group negotiating them at each carrier.

Put another way, the DAL PWA does not address the pay or work rules of it's feeders. You didn't get a seat at the table because your contract wasn't being discussed!

ALPA ignored on their own Constitution and Admin Manual, then locked my Rep's out of the negotiations.

Puh-leese! Cite the sections of each document violated. Please be specific...and sober.

[Note: ASA pilots were also "locked out" of Qantas' negotiations for the same reason: Nothing in the ASA contract was being discussed]

Without any RJ drivers at the table, Delta sold flying out to the lowest bidder.

Are you implying that pilots need protection against OTHER pilots trying to build time/quals? Are YOU a "lowest bidder"?

Keep that thought in mind. It'll come up again!

When I tried to explain "whipsaw" people literally called me crazy and labelled me "Chicken Little."

Nah...you were smart. You realized there is a hierarchy in the business. If there wasn't, you'd have gone straight from your flight training to Delta. But you didn't. You needed to build time somewhere. Everyone does. I did it in the Marine Corps. You did it somewhere else. I was paid less and had crappier "work rules" in the Corps. Kinda works that way...

The whipsaw you recognized exists because pilots starting out in the profession need to start somewhere. They are willing to work harder for less to get to the land of big pay and good rules. That vulnerability exists largely at the smaller end of the fleet size. (There are few RJ's crossing the Atlantic or Pacific)

Mainline pilots (no longer building time or adding quals), insulate themselves from much of that building-time, smaller jet turmoil by drawing a Scope Line at a certain size. Where the line is drawn depends on many factors, such as the economy, government, health of their company, will of the body, etc. Sometimes (mid 90's) the line is easier to draw. Sometimes (Hell-o, Chapter 11!) it ain't.

Once ALPA decided to send this flying out side the protection of mainline, it went to the lowest bidder, which effects our profession negatively.

1. It has always been outside the protection of the mainline! The "old school" comtracts at NWA, UAL and DAL had 70-seats "or DC-9" as their limit. With turboprops, the hub-and-spoke system was self-limiting. With the advent of small jets...that changed. We reacted.
2. And WHO is the lowest bidder, again? You?

Even mainline is not immune - currently one of, if not the, lowest bidder for big RJ flying is the Delta PWA. Has anyone seen Compass' rates? Anyone know what NWA's DC-9 pilots might find themselves flying?

Compass rates are in the DAL contract?

NWA DC-9 pilots will move up the A320, B757, and widebody aicraft. For the next few years they'll continue to fly the DC-9. They're here.

Some pilots about to be hired (a year from now?) at NWA might find themselves flying the EMB-195 or other similiarly-sized aircraft on our list...at rates in our contract.

Do any of us want a profession where it takes a Delta pilot ten to fifteen years to break even on leaving a small jet carrier?

Why do you care? You only care about RJ rates...right? The rates at DAL are none of your business, just as the rates at YOUR airline are none of their's.

This settlement was a win / win.

Ha! It was a nothing/nothing settlement.

The coordination between ALPA members holds the key to working together to improve our profession.

Agree, but don't over-sell it. You may see Openers, but you will NOT see prioritization, valuation, and fall-backs. You won't see "trade items" or quids. You'll see the Opener.

This sort of coordination worked before and will provide a benefit again.

It could...but only if the RJDC toads recognize that there is a cost to brand scope and the ability to coordinate. That cost will not be borne exclusively by the mainline. Want brand scope? Bring your checkbook! It's gonna cost YOU too...not just me.

 

[michael707767]

Michael (and I appreciate his candor) illustrates the point for me. Once ALPA decided to send this flying out side the protection of mainline, it went to the lowest bidder, which effects our profession negatively.

I want to point something out. Even though our scope allows certain airplanes to be outsourced, it does not require it. ASA, CMR, whomever gets that flying is only getting it because they will do it cheaper than it can be done at the mainline. I find it ironic that pilots at some regionals are complaining about losing flying to the lowest bidder when they themselves were the lowest bidder at one point.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I want to point something out. Even though our scope allows certain airplanes to be outsourced, it does not require it. ASA, CMR, whomever gets that flying is only getting it because they will do it cheaper than it can be done at the mainline. I find it ironic that pilots at some regionals are complaining about losing flying to the lowest bidder when they themselves were the lowest bidder at one point.

That reminds me of a story WAAAAYYY back in 2002 before they mixed up the commuter flying..... We are in Pensacola and this ASA guy comes up to jumpseat, we start jabbering about the weather, news, football scores, etc. etc. When up comes a shiny new jet with the new paint job (at the time) and it pulls up next to us. The boss asked the guy if he knew where his compadre next to us was going, assuming we were the only flight to ATL. The jumpseater wasn't sure and leans his head towards the window to get a good look and sees SKYWEST under the cockpit window.....

He says...."Oh, those guys, yeah....that's Skywest stealing all of our flying from Dallas......"

I almost puked listening to his gripes about how if it weren't for Skywest, he'd be a Captain in his second year....yadda yadda yadda

If you can't sell a ticket or even call a reservations number in your company name......Then it is NOT YOUR FLYING........plain and simple!!

 

[FLYLOW22]

A National Seniority List would solve this issue and more...

 

[~~~^~~~]

I was there....
I was involved in the process as a mainline pilot interested in getting something called "brand scope"...where all the flying would be done by the mainline and it's direct affiliates.

Thanks for your work - seriously.

Put another way, the DAL PWA does not address the pay or work rules of it's feeders.

Actually it does. When it negotiates pay rates on phantom airplanes while the "feeders" are in section 6 it sets an upper limit on the "feeders" and helps management to lower the standard. Just think about how arbitration works. The phantom rates are effective and ALPA took a "bargaining credit" from management for their "concession." At some level, we are all in this profession together.

Are you implying that pilots need protection against OTHER pilots trying to build time/quals? Are YOU a "lowest bidder"?

Absolutely the feeders need scope - especially if they are not the lowest bidder. ASA was never the lowest bidder when I worked there. (and it cost them 26 jets) However, management frequently told us the only scope we could ever get was to be the lowest bidder.

The whipsaw you recognized exists because pilots starting out in the profession need to start somewhere. They are willing to work harder for less to get to the land of big pay and good rules. That vulnerability exists largely at the smaller end of the fleet size. (There are few RJ's crossing the Atlantic or Pacific)

Mainline pilots (no longer building time or adding quals), insulate themselves from much of that building-time, smaller jet turmoil by drawing a Scope Line at a certain size. Where the line is drawn depends on many factors

So you don't recognize whipsaw at the bottom end of the Delta fleet? Where are the 737-200's? Where is that flying? Do you realize the E170's are flown by non-ALPA carriers, as are most the CRJ900's?

It DOES NOT MATTER that the career expectations of some Delta pilots tend towards the 757's and bigger. What about those pilots who want to fly narrow body domestic? What about those guys who want an upgrade in less than 10 years? Where is Delta's 100 seat jet?

..but only if the RJDC toads recognize that there is a cost to brand scope and the ability to coordinate. That cost will not be borne exclusively by the mainline. Want brand scope? Bring your checkbook! It's gonna cost YOU too...not just me.

OK, Delta sold it, took a big bargaining credit for it and somehow a ALPA carrier owned by a non-union SkyWest (which has already transferred 26 jets) is supposed to buy it back? How much was that bargaining credit $600,000,000? Lets be realistic. What you are saying is the same thing management says - "the only scope you can have is being the cheapest in the portfolio". ... and eventually this leads right back around to Delta's E190 rates and the 100 seater that never seems to be the right fit for mainline.

I understand your logic - thinking about this only from your perspective and I agree with you that Connection pilots have been unwilling to "buy" their scope. But you have to take a larger view of what is good for this profession as well as those who are below you on your own seniority list. This is where I hope that a national union can take a broad view. We need national leadership that can convince ALPA members that coordination between working groups is a very good thing.

I've heard Delta friends talking about US Air East and how this RJDC (you are right in calling it a nearly nothing settlement) is justification to take DAL out of ALPA. The mice are getting too much control....etc. I disagree with that sentiment and think someone in your position of leadership would be wanting to promote the merits of ALPA's actions.

Where I would hope ALPA would take this is towards the recapture of outsourced flying by working with those MEC's. "Brand Scope" if you want to call it that. But, your version of brand scope does not seem to place any value on RJ flying beyond what you can sell and what others can buy. Our disagreement is that I see this as very valuable flying that was valuable when Delta's 737's and DC-9's performed it and still has value today.

You consider it to be time building, I see it as the Delta brand and Delta's passengers who probably deserve better than "time building" pilots who don't see their profession as a "real job." Especially while flying coast to coast, or to Central America on an RJ.

Is it time to frame this debate as being between union loyalists and pilots who only want what is best for them?

Not that I'm trying to paint you with that brush. More I'm concerned about the anti-ALPA rhetoric because no one seems to realize to recapture Delta's flying, Delta is going to have to work with other ALPA members. This is an opportunity.

 

[~~~^~~~]

you're gonna need a loan to cover your needs.

It's cheaper than the $75 version at Abbott's. Besides, a guy could probably get ACARS and re-route information with that thing.

Wear your hat & I'll wear mine.

 

[737 Pylt]

It's cheaper than the $75 version at Abbott's. Besides, a guy could probably get ACARS and re-route information with that thing.

Wear your hat & I'll wear mine.

Fins:
I see you're back to your old self. Don't worry, your identity is safe from being exposed.
I sure hope you do wear your hat. You're on probation.
I also hope (for your sake) you keep your rjdc drivel to a minimum while out on line......Well maybe not, then you'll be flushed like the terd you are!

737

 

[~~~^~~~]

737, Puff, etc...

Will any of you come out and give objective reasons why you are against the ideas to try to fix problems with outsourced flying?

The personal slams do not really explain anything.

I appreciate Occam's Michael's and other's reasoned responses - the logic behind their positions is informative, interesting and mostly correct.

My time has only been spent here hoping to inform and broaden some views. I wasn't a plaintiff and wasn't even a member for years, but the guys had a point about restoring our profession that I believe has merit and would benefit both sides. If you just simply hate ~~~^~~~'s that can be fixed for $10.