RJDC 04/30/05 Update

[N2264J]

General, don't worry about these little RJDC updates. It's all a cry for help from Ford and his band of rejected bitter losers and PFTers. Nothing there but spin. Their lawsuit is in the toilet so the only thing they can come up with is their occasional work of fiction.

Dude, I never heard those "ad hominem" attacks showcasing bigotry from the General related to African Americans and women... You're whacked and a racist - those seem to be your thoughts and not his...

I agree that your perspective would change the minute you were hired by a mainline carrier and your flying and wage level were jeopardized by lower-wage outsourced flying.... Your perspective would change...

I don't defend the General's opinions, but this is too much.

You must be one of those folks that imagine bigotry when no one agrees with your point of view. Haven't you figured out that you won't change anyone's mind on this board. You may never, ever change anyone's mind no matter how or where you argue a point. Do us a favor and take that tool out of your bag. Go out and do something positive.

Claiming someone is a bigot due to your own frustration and opinions is chilling. With your logic someone could call you a bigot.

Shock! Indignation! Condescension! Scolding the arrogance of the very question! Dodge and redirect the argument-call him a racist!

Did I touch a nerve? Does it hurt when I do that?

Isn't it appalling and frightening when your value system is called into question by someone as unworthy as a "commuter" "lifer" who's still at a "regional"? Let's face it, if "those people" had anything on the ball, they'd be on your seniority list right now. I guess I just don't know my place. I don't seem to understand that the mainline pilots that run ALPA, up in the big house, knows what's best for me and my kind.

Not one. Not one rational counter point to any issue raised in the update.

 

[PCL_128]

Not one. Not one rational counter point to any issue raised in the update.

Ask and ye shall receive.

1. ALPA Exposes its Vulnerability on 90-Seat Issue, but Ignores Reasons Why

Not much to respond to on this one. The RJDC just draws the wrong conclusions from Woerth's statement. Duane simply said that there would be no scope relief on 90 seat aircraft. Period. The only way it will happen will be in the courts. Basically, he's saying that the only way the scope relief will happen is if it is forced on us by a bankruptcy court. How this validates the RJDC's kooky theories I have no idea.

2. ALPA’s “Legacy” Carriers Face New Wave of Concessionary Bargaining

The pilots at the majors have every right to bargain on scope. It is not a violation of your "rights" as a regional pilot and it is not a violation of DFR. Northwest pilots own all flying done under the NW code, so it's up to them too decide who flies what.

3. Northwest MEC Reaffirms Claim to all 70-seat Flying

Thank God that the NW pilots have the balls to do this. The last thing I want is a bunch of 70 or 90 seaters at Pinnacle or Mesaba. I'd be stuck at this godforsaken airline forever as all the new flying is transferred to the regionals. XJ and 9E have no claim to this flying whatsoever. The mainline pilots do. Their contract is the only contract that has any control over the NW code. As such, the NW pilots are free to negotiate what flying is allowed at the regional code-share partners. I support them 100% in keeping the flying at mainline. DFR violation? I think not.

4. Express Jet Pilots Unilaterally Restricted by ALPA to 50-Seat Jets

Just what don't you understand here? CoEx pilots do not work for Continental!!! They work for CoEx. They have no claim to any flying under the CO code. Only the CAL pilots do. They get to decide who gets what, and thanfully they have drawn the line in the sand at 50 seats. Please explain to me why you think that you are entitled to any flying from your mainline partner.

5. Mainline Small Jet Restrictions Give Birth to yet another “Regional” Alter Ego

GoJets is a result of union busting, not scope. TSA wants to break the back of ALPA. Scope has nothing to do with this. If you can't see this then you're dumber than J.C. Lawson. (and that's pretty dang dumb)

6. ALPA’s Strategic Plan Ignores Union’s Failures and Endorses Current Scope Practice

More of the same. You don't own flying, stop pretending that you do. How many times do we have to tell you this before it finally sinks in? If you want some control over the DL code, then earn it: get a job by interviewing when they start hiring again. Otherwise, stop yer whining.

7. Small Jet Operators Flex Financial Muscles

This is all about bad management at the legacy carriers and relatively good management at the regionals. The regional carriers until now have been able to get guaranteed profits by charging a fee-for-departure that ensures a profit no matter how many people are actually carried. The gates, fuel, insurance, and even airplanes are often paid for by the mainline carrier. If you can't make a healthy profit running a business like that, then you need to go back to business school. Again, this has nothing to do with scope and "predatory bargaining."

 

[General Lee]

PCL_128,


Thank you for being able to see through this RJDC mess. You have the correct attitude, and I bet you will find yourself at a Major someday, making a lot more money than you would have had the regionals taken the mainline 90/100 seat flying.



N2264J,

I haven't come up with a good argument, eh? Have you? Bringing larger aircraft down to a lower paying airline is bad for everyone. Having the ability to go to work flying larger planes and better pay/benefits is a better option for everyone. Maybe it is because you are at Comair and you already believe you are at a "Major"......



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[braveheart]

The NERDS are back, and they're BAD......


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

In 1986 the "nerds" at NASA warned that the space shuttle booster o-rings could be compromised by cold weather. Their warnings were ignored and the result was the nation's worst space disaster.

In 2003, while the Columbia was still in orbit, the "nerds" at NASA warned their superiors that the orbiter may have sustained damage during the launch. Their warnings were ignored and the nation sustained its second "worst" space disaster.

Prior to 9/11, ALPA's leadership was warned, in writing, that its small jet restrictions were fundamentally flawed and would not protect "mainline" jobs. Those warnings were ignored and the union has since suffered its "worst" disaster as furloughs have reached record highs and bargaining strength is at all-time lows.

At the very least NASA conducted investigations and the causal factors leading up to the disasters were identified. But at ALPA, many still ignore the facts and elect to attack the "nerds" who have been proven by events to be correct.

While I'll respectfully disagree with PCL_128, at least he's made an attempt to engage in a debate on the facts. In the meanwhile, here's another document from the "nerds" that may prove helpful:

http://www.rjdefense.com/2003/10_Things_About_Scope.pdf

 

[General Lee]

General,

In 1986 the "nerds" at NASA warned that the space shuttle booster o-rings could be compromised by cold weather. Their warnings were ignored and the result was the nation's worst space disaster.

In 2003, while the Columbia was still in orbit, the "nerds" at NASA warned their superiors that the orbiter may have sustained damage during the launch. Their warnings were ignored and the nation sustained its second "worst" space disaster.

Prior to 9/11, ALPA's leadership was warned, in writing, that its small jet restrictions were fundamentally flawed and would not protect "mainline" jobs. Those warnings were ignored and the union has since suffered its "worst" disaster as furloughs have reached record highs and bargaining strength is at all-time lows.

At the very least NASA conducted investigations and the causal factors leading up to the disasters were identified. But at ALPA, many still ignore the facts and elect to attack the "nerds" who have been proven by events to be correct.

While I'll respectfully disagree with PCL_128, at least he's made an attempt to engage in a debate on the facts. In the meanwhile, here's another document from the "nerds" that may prove helpful:

http://www.rjdefense.com/2003/10_Things_About_Scope.pdf

I was quoting a "Revenge of the Nerds" movie for Gawd sake. It was the sequal, and the nerds had just arrived in FLL. Some jock guy at the hotel saw them arrive, and said, "The Nerds are back, and they're Bad!" You should rent it---great laughs. Take a chill pill. I consider myself a nerd, but with an adonis like body. At least, that is what my wife says.......ah yeah.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Shock! Indignation! Condescension! Scolding the arrogance of the very question! Dodge and redirect the argument-call him a racist!

Did I touch a nerve? Does it hurt when I do that?

Isn't it appalling and frightening when you're value system is called into question by someone as unworthy as a "commuter" "lifer" who's still at a "regional"? Let's face it, if "those people" had anything on the ball, they'd be on your seniority list right now. I guess I just don't know my place. I don't seem to understand that the mainline pilots that run ALPA, up in the big house, knows what's best for me and my kind.

Not one. Not one rational counter point to any issue raised in the update.

Dude, cheer up. I wish you well in your career.

 

[imadumbpilot]

It's the low wage and $hitty work rules defense coalition working against labor to bring down the minimum wage and outsource your job coalition.


idiots.

 

[FDJ2]

Did I touch a nerve? Does it hurt when I do that?

No. You and your little lawsuit, getting smaller all the time, and your RJDC band of losers and malcontents spinning your deception would be laughable if you weren't so repulsive. I pity you.

 

[FDJ2]

General,


Prior to 9/11, ALPA's leadership was warned, in writing, that its small jet restrictions were fundamentally flawed and would not protect "mainline" jobs. Those warnings were ignored and the union has since suffered its "worst" disaster as furloughs have reached record highs and bargaining strength is at all-time lows.
/QUOTE]

And somehow you think that eliminating scope at the mainline would have mitigated furloughs. RJDC logic: allow ulimited outsourcing to cheaper labor groups is the best way to protect your contract and jobs, never mind the effect of 9/11, SARS, the hyper growth of LCC bringing down yields, $50+ oil, its all about your scope limiting the outsourcing of your flying to me. Amazing.

 

[N2264J]

The RJDC just draws the wrong conclusions from Woerth's statement.

You're still missing it. Let me try to reduce the content of the update to a couple of simple points.

Mainline scope isn't working. As it is, it's a dismal failure. It's unenforceable. At least one or two legacy carriers will be back at the table this summer, despite what Woerth says, giving management more scope relief in a last ditch attempt to hold on to their pensions. Scope hasn't secured one mainline job. The first two legacy carriers into bankruptcy, US Airways and United, had the most restrictive scope clauses, they couldn't compete in the marketplace and each furloughed more pilots than Delta. Additionally, management is getting around these faulty mainline scope clauses by creating alter ego airlines under different certificates. Not only does ALPA not protest in accordance with its own Alter Ego policy, but it facilitates this process in return for getting furloughees into those cockpits seats (Jets for Jobs) at the expense of the affiliate pilots who usually, are members in the same union. Meanwhile, the proliferation of alter ego airlines is decimating ALPA's primary bargaining strength, unity, harming every single ALPA member but especially the furloughees. The race to the bottom is the inevitable result of all these different pilot groups forced to bid on the same flying. Even if the economy miraculously rebounds tomorrow, ALPA's bargaining leverage will still be hobbled by all the alter egos it helped management create.

More of the same. You don't own flying, stop pretending that you do. How many times do we have to tell you this before it finally sinks in? If you want some control over the DL code, then earn it: get a job by interviewing when they start hiring again. Otherwise, stop yer whining.

The flying belongs to Delta Air Lines not Delta pilots. When Delta bought Comair, Delta wasn't flying any of the aircraft we flew. Their pilots didn't want that flying and bargained it away for more money and benefits in their contract. If you accept the premise in the Constitution and By-laws and federal law, that all union members have an equal standing and voice in the union then when Delta Air Lines bought Comair and ASA, the DMEC was no longer the only MEC on the property but was one of three equal MECs. When mainline pilots subsequently bargains with management to unilaterally renegotiate arbitrary and discriminatory restrictions they placed on our flying without our knowledge or consent, we assert that is a breach of the duty of fair representation.

It's fundamental. Duane Woerth's failure of leadership on this issue alone is, in my view, an impeachable offense. How can a union possibly survive without unity? The updates can be an informative, useful tool for anyone who cares. Judge ALPA by what they do, not what they say.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

This ignore list thingee works well. I was beginning to think I would never use it.

 

[N2264J]

This ignore list thingee works well. I was beginning to think I would never use it.

While Farley is away swilling another beer, anyone care to guess why Southwest Airlines isn't in ALPA?

 

[General Lee]

While he's gone, anyone care to guess why Southwest Airlines isn't in ALPA?

And, any wonder why Southwest, Airtran, and Jetblue don't have aircraft smaller than 100 seats? Southwest and Airtran don't have anything smaller than a 717 or 733, and Airtran ditched their CRJs. I guess low fares and 50 seat jets don't mix. Ask Indy.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[N2264J]

Re: 04/30/05 Update

And, any wonder why Southwest, Airtran, and Jetblue don't have aircraft smaller than 100 seats? Southwest and Airtran don't have anything smaller than a 717 or 733, and Airtran ditched their CRJs. I guess low fares and 50 seat jets don't mix. Ask Indy.

I have no idea what this has to do with my question but I'll give you a clue: it is not because SWA wasn't invited.

 

[FR8mastr]

Well, how about we give Comair all of the 738s and MD88s? Would that make you happy? Sure, we can allow an airline that pays less and gives less benefits to fly larger equipment and displace many mainline pilots, losing those benefits forever. Great. Sounds great. All because some senior guys like Ford and Lawson don't want to be in front of a firing squad during the interview. And, those guys might have to finally pull gear for someone younger than they are.... Sure, bring down the larger equipment, we'll fly it for you---and keep our vacation and weekends off....Lazy jerks! If they want to fly larger planes, they should bite the bullet and interview and come over and start where the rest of us did. But noooooooooo! They shouldn't have to---they spent 10 years in a BANDIT. Great. Yippy. I flew a Dornier 228 and a E120 for years, and I went for it. Grow up boys. Try interviewing.... Continental is hiring---and as soon as you go over there the RJDC will be the LAST thing on your minds. What I say is sooo true.


Bye Bye--General Lee

What does this have to due with D W being a liar? He knows the 190 are not going to be flown at US Airways they will be flown by Republic or whatever name they pick this week. This is the "leader of ALPA" lying not the RJDC. Just so you know, I want the 190's if they are to be, to be flown by ML pilots.

 

[~~~^~~~]

General Lee :

Can't imagine Ford would have much problem getting hired anywhere. His ALPA Safety work alone with the "One Level of Safety" program, the E120 investigation work and other efforts have earned him the respect of some pretty well connected folks. He also was one of the youngest Captains Comair had and probably has well over 10,000 of 121 PIC, yet I think he is still in his 30's. What do you even know about the guy, other than you don't like his ALPA politics?

If it comes to you, me and Dan Ford sending out resumes, I hope they look at mine before they see his.

~~~^~~~

 

[~~~^~~~]

Every example of whipsawing on this board is another bottle of Cognac at the next ATA convention.


To misquote WF Buckley, what airline managers have to fear is a nationwide, unified and mobilized pilot force, from the Brasilias to the 777's. Which means they have little to fear....

Huck for ALPA President
​

Darn, it is nice to read something from a Boeing driver that understands what this is about.​

 

[General Lee]

General Lee :

Can't imagine Ford would have much problem getting hired anywhere. His ALPA Safety work alone with the "One Level of Safety" program, the E120 investigation work and other efforts have earned him the respect of some pretty well connected folks. He also was one of the youngest Captains Comair had and probably has well over 10,000 of 121 PIC, yet I think he is still in his 30's. What do you even know about the guy, other than you don't like his ALPA politics?

If it comes to you, me and Dan Ford sending out resumes, I hope they look at mine before they see his.

~~~^~~~

Sounds like he is a spoiled brat who doesn't want to be an FO again. Doesn't he know that "the way it works" to fly larger aircraft is to interview and get hired at another airline? He is scared of the interview maybe. Maybe he doesn't want to lose his "weekends off". If so, then stay at a regional and TAKE IT. If he wants to fly 737s, then maybe he should interview at Airtran or Southwest---but that would require him TO LOSE ALL WEEKENDS OFF FOR AWHILE. He is trying to get it both ways---keeping his seniority and trying to fly larger aircraft. That is what is wrong here. I am sure he is a smarter than average guy, and probably really good at flying RJs. He might be the BEST RJ PILOT EVER! (after you fins)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

He is trying to get it both ways---keeping his seniority and trying to fly larger aircraft.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Where did he write that? For the ten zillion'th time, ALPA mergers are most often based on equipment, or pay. Dan would have been stapled if his PID request had been granted.

The only thing that would have changed is your pilots would not have been furloughed and CHQ would not be operating the next generation of Delta's narrow body fleet.

 

[michael707767]

Where did he write that? For the ten zillion'th time, ALPA mergers are most often based on equipment, or pay. Dan would have been stapled if his PID request had been granted.

Probably true. But then the next day he no doubt would have filed a lawsuit asking for DOH. The DOH defense coalition.

 

[surplus1]

I am sure he is a smarter than average guy,
Bye Bye--General Lee

I'm not so sure if he's smarter than the average guy Gemeral, but he sure is smarter than you.

Sorry, you left yourself wide open and I just couldn't resist. Feel the love?

 

[surplus1]

Probably true. But then the next day he no doubt would have filed a lawsuit asking for DOH. The DOH defense coalition.

Hey Mike,

Did anybody ever win one of those "DOH lawsuits" you keep talking about? Are you sure your argument isn't just specious?

 

[General Lee]

I'm not so sure if he's smarter than the average guy Gemeral, but he sure is smarter than you.

Sorry, you left yourself wide open and I just couldn't resist. Feel the love?

Ouch. Come on there Surplus, not you smacking me now..... I am smart, smarter than the average GENIOUS. My debating skills are legendary---I am a debating MASTER. I am a MASTER DEBATOR. I debate the masses--I AM A MASS DEBATOR. And, the name is General Lee--although my wife thinks I am a "gem."


Fins,

So, Danny Ford wouldn't want larger aircraft? Wait, he is just a team player and doesn't want to interview anywhere else, right? What does he want ALPA to do again? He wants them to fight for larger aircraft for Comair, while ALPA is representing our needs for better scope. Why didn't Comair get better scope for themselves in the last contract after the strike? CHQ wouldn't be a DCI carrier then, but instead Comair and their pilots wanted the $$$$$. We have scope at DL, and you guys (ASA/Comair) should have gotten your own.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[mach zero]

Sounds like he is a spoiled brat who doesn't want to be an FO again. Doesn't he know that "the way it works" to fly larger aircraft is to interview and get hired at another airline? He is scared of the interview maybe. Maybe he doesn't want to lose his "weekends off". If so, then stay at a regional and TAKE IT. If he wants to fly 737s, then maybe he should interview at Airtran or Southwest---but that would require him TO LOSE ALL WEEKENDS OFF FOR AWHILE. He is trying to get it both ways---keeping his seniority and trying to fly larger aircraft. That is what is wrong here. I am sure he is a smarter than average guy, and probably really good at flying RJs. He might be the BEST RJ PILOT EVER! (after you fins)


Bye Bye--General Lee

Well I have been at SWA for a little over 7 months now and I have weekends off. I don't consider 7 months to be "AWHILE."

 

[surplus1]

Ouch. Come on there Surplus, not you smacking me now..... I am smart, smarter than the average GENIOUS. My debating skills are legendary---I am a debating MASTER. I am a MASTER DEBATOR. I debate the masses--I AM A MASS DEBATOR. And, the name is General Lee--although my wife thinks I am a "gem."

Bye Bye--General Lee

General Lee ............ I must agree!

PS. I see your company has just formed a new alliance with the "Regional Airline of the Year." There must be something in the water after all. Your management seems to be expert in the Limbo, as in "how low can you go". [Are you old enough to remember Chubby Checker?]

 

[N2264J]

Re: RJDC 04/30/05

I see your company has just formed a new alliance with the "Regional Airline of the Year."

ALPA casting a blind eye on alter ego airlines is catching up with the "leadership." Looking the other way while management creates alter ego airlines or actually facilitating their creation with flawed scope clauses that drives flying off the property and then demanding furloughees be put in those seats, is coming home to roost.

Freedom operates 90 seaters (as well as Republic). Just wait until the next time a "legacy" goes to the table to negotiate rates. Alter ego is not just a "regional" problem anymore and the Delta pilots, who allowed it to happen for embellishments to their contract, have no bargaining levelage to stop it. So how's that "brand scope" working out for ya, Generally? Some union.

So, you wanna get drunk?