RJDC 04/30/05 Update

[FlyBoeingJets]

I wonder what would happen if a majority of the airline pilots in the US went on strike at the same time. The forces massed against us would have to come to terms at that point. Management and financiers would be forced to come out from behind their financial covenants and other "deals" designed to keep wages unacceptably low.

 

[michael707767]

I wonder what would happen if a majority of the airline pilots in the US went on strike at the same time. The forces massed against us would have to come to terms at that point. Management and financiers would be forced to come out from behind their financial covenants and other "deals" designed to keep wages unacceptably low.

I think if all the pilots in the US went on strike, it would take about a day before Congress enacted laws allowing cabatage.

 

[mnboyev]

I dont think anyone should shop at Walmart..... However, they should fly AirTran.. Small fares, Big Jet comfort...

So, there....

 

[mnboyev]

Just a little more bait for the General.....

 

[AA717driver]

The airlines on top throughout the years are responsible for the disunity we have in the airline business. Whether it was TWA, PAA and EAL in the '60's or AA, DAL and UAL in the '90's they all looked down their noses at the smaller carriers and dismissed any cries for a national seniority list or guild type setup as the little airline pilots trying to grab a piece of the pie.

We are reaping what has been sewn over the past 40 years at ALPA National.

'The big guys don't give a crap about me so I'll take whatever job I can get for whatever pay rate they are offering.' I don't blame the Regional guys for wanting bigger planes and the bigger paychecks that go along with them. The RJ's were cast off by the big airline MEC's in the 80's and NOW that 10-20% of the big airline pilots are on the street, they want the RJ's back. Too late.TC

 

[mnboyev]

I like the Guild idea.... all inclusive. Booger pickin junior and upgrade to grouchy stinky senior... One national list..

It wont happen. Too many RJ's.

 

[crashpad]

I don't beleive it will happen either, but could easily invision two national seniority lists. One for the big planes and one for the feeders.

 

[rptrain]

I don't beleive it will happen either, but could easily invision two national seniority lists. One for the big planes and one for the feeders.

man, you are a true progressive. "separate, but equal." hey, where's the bathroom for feeder pilots? i feel like punching a grumpy in somebody's flightbag.

 

[strega7]

I wonder what would happen if a majority of the airline pilots in the US went on strike at the same time. The forces massed against us would have to come to terms at that point. Management and financiers would be forced to come out from behind their financial covenants and other "deals" designed to keep wages unacceptably low.

Don't forget your ALPA history. ALPA tried this once years ago to bring attention to the rash of hijackings that were taking place. It didn't work then because there was no unitly between the different pilot groups. Some groups stayed home, others when to work. You will never get 5 pilots to agree on something let alone 50,000+.

 

[Shalam]

man, you are a true progressive. "separate, but equal." hey, where's the bathroom for feeder pilots? i feel like punching a grumpy in somebody's flightbag.

I think commercial pilots should be paid just like babysitters, by the head.

1900 Driver = $19 / hour
RJ Driver = $40-70 / hour
737 Driver = $150 / hour
757 Driver = $200 / hour
767 Driver = $275 / hour
777 Driver = $400 / hour

At least 1900 drivers get the correct pay!

 

[N2264J]

General, don't worry about these little RJDC updates. It's all a cry for help from Ford and his band of rejected bitter losers and PFTers. Nothing there but spin. Their lawsuit is in the toilet so the only thing they can come up with is their occasional work of fiction.

Dude, I never heard those "ad hominem" attacks showcasing bigotry from the General related to African Americans and women... You're whacked and a racist - those seem to be your thoughts and not his...

I agree that your perspective would change the minute you were hired by a mainline carrier and your flying and wage level were jeopardized by lower-wage outsourced flying.... Your perspective would change...

I don't defend the General's opinions, but this is too much.

You must be one of those folks that imagine bigotry when no one agrees with your point of view. Haven't you figured out that you won't change anyone's mind on this board. You may never, ever change anyone's mind no matter how or where you argue a point. Do us a favor and take that tool out of your bag. Go out and do something positive.

Claiming someone is a bigot due to your own frustration and opinions is chilling. With your logic someone could call you a bigot.

Shock! Indignation! Condescension! Scolding the arrogance of the very question! Dodge and redirect the argument-call him a racist!

Did I touch a nerve? Does it hurt when I do that?

Isn't it appalling and frightening when your value system is called into question by someone as unworthy as a "commuter" "lifer" who's still at a "regional"? Let's face it, if "those people" had anything on the ball, they'd be on your seniority list right now. I guess I just don't know my place. I don't seem to understand that the mainline pilots that run ALPA, up in the big house, knows what's best for me and my kind.

Not one. Not one rational counter point to any issue raised in the update.

 

[PCL_128]

Not one. Not one rational counter point to any issue raised in the update.

Ask and ye shall receive.

1. ALPA Exposes its Vulnerability on 90-Seat Issue, but Ignores Reasons Why

Not much to respond to on this one. The RJDC just draws the wrong conclusions from Woerth's statement. Duane simply said that there would be no scope relief on 90 seat aircraft. Period. The only way it will happen will be in the courts. Basically, he's saying that the only way the scope relief will happen is if it is forced on us by a bankruptcy court. How this validates the RJDC's kooky theories I have no idea.

2. ALPA’s “Legacy” Carriers Face New Wave of Concessionary Bargaining

The pilots at the majors have every right to bargain on scope. It is not a violation of your "rights" as a regional pilot and it is not a violation of DFR. Northwest pilots own all flying done under the NW code, so it's up to them too decide who flies what.

3. Northwest MEC Reaffirms Claim to all 70-seat Flying

Thank God that the NW pilots have the balls to do this. The last thing I want is a bunch of 70 or 90 seaters at Pinnacle or Mesaba. I'd be stuck at this godforsaken airline forever as all the new flying is transferred to the regionals. XJ and 9E have no claim to this flying whatsoever. The mainline pilots do. Their contract is the only contract that has any control over the NW code. As such, the NW pilots are free to negotiate what flying is allowed at the regional code-share partners. I support them 100% in keeping the flying at mainline. DFR violation? I think not.

4. Express Jet Pilots Unilaterally Restricted by ALPA to 50-Seat Jets

Just what don't you understand here? CoEx pilots do not work for Continental!!! They work for CoEx. They have no claim to any flying under the CO code. Only the CAL pilots do. They get to decide who gets what, and thanfully they have drawn the line in the sand at 50 seats. Please explain to me why you think that you are entitled to any flying from your mainline partner.

5. Mainline Small Jet Restrictions Give Birth to yet another “Regional” Alter Ego

GoJets is a result of union busting, not scope. TSA wants to break the back of ALPA. Scope has nothing to do with this. If you can't see this then you're dumber than J.C. Lawson. (and that's pretty dang dumb)

6. ALPA’s Strategic Plan Ignores Union’s Failures and Endorses Current Scope Practice

More of the same. You don't own flying, stop pretending that you do. How many times do we have to tell you this before it finally sinks in? If you want some control over the DL code, then earn it: get a job by interviewing when they start hiring again. Otherwise, stop yer whining.

7. Small Jet Operators Flex Financial Muscles

This is all about bad management at the legacy carriers and relatively good management at the regionals. The regional carriers until now have been able to get guaranteed profits by charging a fee-for-departure that ensures a profit no matter how many people are actually carried. The gates, fuel, insurance, and even airplanes are often paid for by the mainline carrier. If you can't make a healthy profit running a business like that, then you need to go back to business school. Again, this has nothing to do with scope and "predatory bargaining."

 

[General Lee]

PCL_128,


Thank you for being able to see through this RJDC mess. You have the correct attitude, and I bet you will find yourself at a Major someday, making a lot more money than you would have had the regionals taken the mainline 90/100 seat flying.



N2264J,

I haven't come up with a good argument, eh? Have you? Bringing larger aircraft down to a lower paying airline is bad for everyone. Having the ability to go to work flying larger planes and better pay/benefits is a better option for everyone. Maybe it is because you are at Comair and you already believe you are at a "Major"......



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[braveheart]

The NERDS are back, and they're BAD......


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

In 1986 the "nerds" at NASA warned that the space shuttle booster o-rings could be compromised by cold weather. Their warnings were ignored and the result was the nation's worst space disaster.

In 2003, while the Columbia was still in orbit, the "nerds" at NASA warned their superiors that the orbiter may have sustained damage during the launch. Their warnings were ignored and the nation sustained its second "worst" space disaster.

Prior to 9/11, ALPA's leadership was warned, in writing, that its small jet restrictions were fundamentally flawed and would not protect "mainline" jobs. Those warnings were ignored and the union has since suffered its "worst" disaster as furloughs have reached record highs and bargaining strength is at all-time lows.

At the very least NASA conducted investigations and the causal factors leading up to the disasters were identified. But at ALPA, many still ignore the facts and elect to attack the "nerds" who have been proven by events to be correct.

While I'll respectfully disagree with PCL_128, at least he's made an attempt to engage in a debate on the facts. In the meanwhile, here's another document from the "nerds" that may prove helpful:

http://www.rjdefense.com/2003/10_Things_About_Scope.pdf

 

[General Lee]

General,

In 1986 the "nerds" at NASA warned that the space shuttle booster o-rings could be compromised by cold weather. Their warnings were ignored and the result was the nation's worst space disaster.

In 2003, while the Columbia was still in orbit, the "nerds" at NASA warned their superiors that the orbiter may have sustained damage during the launch. Their warnings were ignored and the nation sustained its second "worst" space disaster.

Prior to 9/11, ALPA's leadership was warned, in writing, that its small jet restrictions were fundamentally flawed and would not protect "mainline" jobs. Those warnings were ignored and the union has since suffered its "worst" disaster as furloughs have reached record highs and bargaining strength is at all-time lows.

At the very least NASA conducted investigations and the causal factors leading up to the disasters were identified. But at ALPA, many still ignore the facts and elect to attack the "nerds" who have been proven by events to be correct.

While I'll respectfully disagree with PCL_128, at least he's made an attempt to engage in a debate on the facts. In the meanwhile, here's another document from the "nerds" that may prove helpful:

http://www.rjdefense.com/2003/10_Things_About_Scope.pdf

I was quoting a "Revenge of the Nerds" movie for Gawd sake. It was the sequal, and the nerds had just arrived in FLL. Some jock guy at the hotel saw them arrive, and said, "The Nerds are back, and they're Bad!" You should rent it---great laughs. Take a chill pill. I consider myself a nerd, but with an adonis like body. At least, that is what my wife says.......ah yeah.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Shock! Indignation! Condescension! Scolding the arrogance of the very question! Dodge and redirect the argument-call him a racist!

Did I touch a nerve? Does it hurt when I do that?

Isn't it appalling and frightening when you're value system is called into question by someone as unworthy as a "commuter" "lifer" who's still at a "regional"? Let's face it, if "those people" had anything on the ball, they'd be on your seniority list right now. I guess I just don't know my place. I don't seem to understand that the mainline pilots that run ALPA, up in the big house, knows what's best for me and my kind.

Not one. Not one rational counter point to any issue raised in the update.

Dude, cheer up. I wish you well in your career.

 

[imadumbpilot]

It's the low wage and $hitty work rules defense coalition working against labor to bring down the minimum wage and outsource your job coalition.


idiots.

 

[FDJ2]

Did I touch a nerve? Does it hurt when I do that?

No. You and your little lawsuit, getting smaller all the time, and your RJDC band of losers and malcontents spinning your deception would be laughable if you weren't so repulsive. I pity you.

 

[FDJ2]

General,


Prior to 9/11, ALPA's leadership was warned, in writing, that its small jet restrictions were fundamentally flawed and would not protect "mainline" jobs. Those warnings were ignored and the union has since suffered its "worst" disaster as furloughs have reached record highs and bargaining strength is at all-time lows.
/QUOTE]

And somehow you think that eliminating scope at the mainline would have mitigated furloughs. RJDC logic: allow ulimited outsourcing to cheaper labor groups is the best way to protect your contract and jobs, never mind the effect of 9/11, SARS, the hyper growth of LCC bringing down yields, $50+ oil, its all about your scope limiting the outsourcing of your flying to me. Amazing.

 

[N2264J]

The RJDC just draws the wrong conclusions from Woerth's statement.

You're still missing it. Let me try to reduce the content of the update to a couple of simple points.

Mainline scope isn't working. As it is, it's a dismal failure. It's unenforceable. At least one or two legacy carriers will be back at the table this summer, despite what Woerth says, giving management more scope relief in a last ditch attempt to hold on to their pensions. Scope hasn't secured one mainline job. The first two legacy carriers into bankruptcy, US Airways and United, had the most restrictive scope clauses, they couldn't compete in the marketplace and each furloughed more pilots than Delta. Additionally, management is getting around these faulty mainline scope clauses by creating alter ego airlines under different certificates. Not only does ALPA not protest in accordance with its own Alter Ego policy, but it facilitates this process in return for getting furloughees into those cockpits seats (Jets for Jobs) at the expense of the affiliate pilots who usually, are members in the same union. Meanwhile, the proliferation of alter ego airlines is decimating ALPA's primary bargaining strength, unity, harming every single ALPA member but especially the furloughees. The race to the bottom is the inevitable result of all these different pilot groups forced to bid on the same flying. Even if the economy miraculously rebounds tomorrow, ALPA's bargaining leverage will still be hobbled by all the alter egos it helped management create.

More of the same. You don't own flying, stop pretending that you do. How many times do we have to tell you this before it finally sinks in? If you want some control over the DL code, then earn it: get a job by interviewing when they start hiring again. Otherwise, stop yer whining.

The flying belongs to Delta Air Lines not Delta pilots. When Delta bought Comair, Delta wasn't flying any of the aircraft we flew. Their pilots didn't want that flying and bargained it away for more money and benefits in their contract. If you accept the premise in the Constitution and By-laws and federal law, that all union members have an equal standing and voice in the union then when Delta Air Lines bought Comair and ASA, the DMEC was no longer the only MEC on the property but was one of three equal MECs. When mainline pilots subsequently bargains with management to unilaterally renegotiate arbitrary and discriminatory restrictions they placed on our flying without our knowledge or consent, we assert that is a breach of the duty of fair representation.

It's fundamental. Duane Woerth's failure of leadership on this issue alone is, in my view, an impeachable offense. How can a union possibly survive without unity? The updates can be an informative, useful tool for anyone who cares. Judge ALPA by what they do, not what they say.