RJ reverse thrust... overdose!

[Strikefinder]

Strike, we use the buckets, not the actual reverse. By alternating buckets on taxi, we don't risk overheating them, and by not using reverse, no rise in ITT or rpm, we shouldn't be hurting the engine so long as we are moving foreward.

I do agree that they shouldn't be used on every landing, but the other guy complains that we are costing the boss money by using the brakes. I just can't win. Anyway, my POH doesn't say anything one way or the other about TR use during taxi.

In the end, it doesn't matter what I think--it matters what the guy signing your paycheck thinks!

Again, it depends on the circumstances, and I concede that some airplanes may be different. If you're flying into 5000' strips and you have very small brakes that have a tendency to overheat, then I would certainly expect you to adjust accordingly. Since I fly the EMB145 series, I can thoroughly speak only on those, and we don't have these issues a lot, but when I deadhead, I often feel like I'm going to pelt my head into the passenger in front of me . Unless you drag the brakes on the aircraft, there's no reason why they ought to be overheating, even on a quick turn (we regularly do 20-25 minute turns). And, as another poster said, I don't think that the fact that passengers are used to crappy service and comfort is an excuse to continue to give it to them. I'm not afraid that passengers can't deal with a rapid deceleration--I question why we ought to give it to them unless necessary. I'm not talking about stormy nights on short runways--of course you use reversers in such circumstances!

 

[pianoman]

With the engines on the EMB, the reversers have been problematic. Apparently it stresses the physical buckets less if you minimize reverse thrust. Also, the carbon brakes work better and wear less if you heat them up. So that's why our company prefers reversers popped, idle thrust, braking as needed.

Unless necessary otherwise, I like to land in the TDZ, gentle decel., and make a taxiway before the end. Why do we need to make the first one? Don't we get paid by the hour?

 

[mckpickle]

This issue with the brakes is what Piano man says. The brakes on the EMB145 are not efficient until they are heated up. There are 2 reasons why XJT doesn't want us using lots of reverse.


1. It is hard on the engines. You are taking a moving body that passes air. You are decelerating and at the same time super heating the engine with a lot less airflow. Variations in temp causes stress.

2. The other issue is that guys will tend to dump in max revers until 60 knots. Then when they are trying to make the turn off hammer on the brakes for the last 100 yards. This DESTROYS the brakes because they have not heated yet.

Personaly I pop the buckets and apply even constant pressure to the brakes. Makes for a peacefull landing as well. Of course that can change on RW condition however if you land in the Touch Down zone,(and aren't trying to catch a flight home), you shouldn't have any problems.

 

[aa73]

have you heard your brakes in the S80's at AA? it sounds to me like you use no reverse at all. squeak squeal all the while taxiing. no criticism, just curious.

besides these are NEW jets. what's EPR?

keep picking up open time with 3000 comrAAdes on the street.

What the...?

Dude, lighten up. First off, I don't pick up open time, I'm on reserve genius.

Second, stick to the thread topic.

Third, MD80 brakes all squeal and chatter. No matter what airline. It's an old system, kinda like the 727.

 

[aa73]

Thanks for all the replies folks. Notwithstanding Citation Lover's mature response, I stand enlightened that it really is mostly up to the individual pilot's technique.


We used to spool em up pretty high on reverse but after Little Rock, it was discovered that more than 1.3 EPR (engine pressure ratio for you young folks) blankets the rudder and may cause loss of directional control. Therefore we are limited to 1.3, which doesn't sound like much from the cabin.

Thanks again for the replies.

 

[English]

aa73, were you flying on Eagle?

I flew with a former Eagle RJ pilot recently, and let him fly on an empty leg in a Citation. I thought I had all bases covered until the landing roll when, before I could say anything, he went into full reverse. I mean FULL. I've never seen the levers up that high before! After I finished yelling at him to stow them (cause the noise was so extremely high in the cockpit over the roar of the engines in reverse) he explained that
was what Eagle taught him on the Embraer.

 

[aa73]

aa73, were you flying on Eagle?

I flew with a former Eagle RJ pilot recently, and let him fly on an empty leg in a Citation. I thought I had all bases covered until the landing roll when, before I could say anything, he went into full reverse. I mean FULL. I've never seen the levers up that high before! After I finished yelling at him to stow them (cause the noise was so extremely high in the cockpit over the roar of the engines in reverse) he explained that
was what Eagle taught him on the Embraer.

English - actually, no, I was in the back of a Chq EMB American Connection. Also, the ACA CRJ folks used to do it too. My good buddy at Eagle actually told me that Eagle trains them to use only idle thrust unless stopping distance is in doubt. So maybe Eagle revised their procedures ever since your friend left.

regards,
73

 

[chperplt]

I remember being taught during initial at CMR to use full reverse irregardless of situation. Most captains I flew with went with full and or stepped on the brakes and threw everyone towards the front of the airplane.

Always wondering why they got pissed when they didn't grease it in, but never had a problem with trying to make the first turn off.

 

[English]

English - actually, no, I was in the back of a Chq EMB American Connection. Also, the ACA CRJ folks used to do it too. My good buddy at Eagle actually told me that Eagle trains them to use only idle thrust unless stopping distance is in doubt. So maybe Eagle revised their procedures ever since your friend left.

regards,
73

Odd. He just left there within the last month. Maybe different procedures for different folks? He was adamant that it was SOP at Eagle.

 

[chperplt]

He was adamant that it was SOP at Eagle.

Didn't he go through your company training? What do they teach their on the subject?

 

[English]

Yeah read my post again. "I thought I had all bases covered when..."

It was totally my fault for not briefing him in advance. But, I figured he'd been flying a jet, he'd know better than to pull something like that. No one ever told me specifically how to deploy the reversers in a Citation. I just took what I had learned in other jets and applied the same concept. He had been doing well up to that point, and he had previous time in type. I just assumed he knew it already.

Now I know.

 

[taters]

Eagle is only on runways 7000' or less or contaminated runways/caps discretion. Brake

Ya but alot of those Eagle ERJ's have those gay thrust reverse inhibitor bolts

 

[pipejockey]

Everyone seems to be missing the real point of reversers...to let the ground crew know we are there! I let em rip full blast, well dependent upon what kind of captain I am stuck with. Some are afraid the plane will fall apart if you go past idle.

 

[LAXSaabdude]

Odd. He just left there within the last month. Maybe different procedures for different folks? He was adamant that it was SOP at Eagle.

Noooooo........

Full reverse only in an emergency. Idle reverse ONLY allowed on contaminated runway (any length), or runway 7000' or less. Otherwise it's brakes only.

We use them so seldom that most people don't even use them when they are allowed to. They just sort of forget about them.

My thought is that this guy never got to use reverse at Eagle, so he just wanted to see what it was like.

LAXSaabdude.

 

[erj-145mech]

Ya but alot of those Eagle ERJ's have those gay thrust reverse inhibitor bolts

The bolts are just secondary to keep the TR's stowed. Its inhibiting the ICO's in the "chicken coop" keeping the hydraulic pressure from getting to the reversers does the real trick.

 

[snap145]

do you guys check the clam shell deployment on a normal taxi check....ive seen that done at some places...just curious....if so do you go into idle reverse? im sure it depends on sop's

 

[CitationLover]

What the...?

Dude, lighten up. First off, I don't pick up open time, I'm on reserve genius.

Second, stick to the thread topic.

Third, MD80 brakes all squeal and chatter. No matter what airline. It's an old system, kinda like the 727.

you wouldn't be on reserve if others did not pick up OT. there would also be some CA slots open at AE, but you're right we're off topic.

AE trains the CRJ crews to use full reverse upon landing. the million dollar question is whether or not the nose should be on the ground before actuating the reversers....it seems every CA has a different opinion.

all the TWA guys i've talked to have stated that the S-80's at AA were by far the worst sounding brakes compared to the 80's at TWA. maybe they had an axe to grind, i dunno.

 

[jrav8tor]

As some one mentioned before, it's all about technique and company sops that create different results.

What I don't understand (through flying with captains and observations in the money line) is why people land these RJ's 3 pointed??? I was taught to land an airplane by practically stalling the aircraft on the ground. So that's what I have tried to do with the RJ. I have had only on captain mention that I was too slow as I was flaring. That started to make me think it may be different with turbojets, but through my experience the RJ lands better and decelerates faster if you touchdown right around stall speed (not that I stare at the airspeed indicator, mainly done by feel) mains first. I see so many people landing 3 pointed that I often wonder if they are 5 to 10 knots above ref and forcing the a/c on the ground? This may be the reason why people end up using full reverse, max brakes etc. Or it could be the ego kicking in and seeing if you can get off the first high speed. I don't know?

I know our company adds 5 knots to ref, but I think people forget what an extra 5 knots can add to a landing...alot of stuff that makes a 10,000 ft runway turn into 6000 ft. Not an expert, just an observation.

The technique that seems to keep the BTMS down and not require use of Max thrust for me, is using aerodynamic braking. Hold the nose up until the lift decreases enough to allow it to come to the ground naturally...of course you don't want to hit the tail. This slows the aircraft considerably. Obviously if TSRA are in the area and the wind is gusty, you may have to modify your technique.

Of course coming across the fence at ref helps too!

As far as BTMS are concerned, your FO should always have 2 bottles of water on the walk around!

Either way, get it down safely and off the runway so no one needs to tap the TOGA buttons.

Fly safe.

 

[chperplt]

the RJ lands better and decelerates faster if you touchdown right around stall speed

You can't seriously think that's it OK to land a passenger jet at or around stall speed?? You're not flying a 172 anymore dude..

Fly your company's profile and touchdown at Vref. I have a hard time believing that your company teaches you to land your CRJ near stall speed. The last thing the passengers need to hear as you near the ground is the shaker going off.

 

[Baronman]

Land a CRJ around stall speed? The only thing I can think of is that when I see a CRJ coming in, it sure looks like it's about 1 deg aircraft nose down...That's probably why it seems like a 3 point landing (in the CRJ). It would be near imposible to do a 3 point in the ERJ as it comes down the 3 degree glide slope at about +1/2 deg. Just plant it on the RWY dude....

As for it decelerating faster near stall speed wrong......A plane decelerates faster once it's on the ground rather then bleeding the speed off in the air to achieve a near stall landing.

 

[aa73]

you wouldn't be on reserve if others did not pick up OT. there would also be some CA slots open at AE, but you're right we're off topic.

AE trains the CRJ crews to use full reverse upon landing. the million dollar question is whether or not the nose should be on the ground before actuating the reversers....it seems every CA has a different opinion.

all the TWA guys i've talked to have stated that the S-80's at AA were by far the worst sounding brakes compared to the 80's at TWA. maybe they had an axe to grind, i dunno.

Citation - When I was a senior lineholder back in good times, people picked up OT. When we started furloughing, people picked up OT. Today, people still pick up OT. There will always be guys in it for themselves, regardless. Welcome to the APA, eat your young for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Me personally, I just didn't do it as a lineholder when we had guys out on the street. Never needed to.

Back to the brakes... I've ridden on 80s from TWA, AA, and DAL, and every so often you get one that rattles. It's just the brake system. For a TWA guy to say that AA's brakes sound the worst... well, yeah, he's probably got an ax to grind. I never noticed any difference between airlines. Most of those guys are cool as can be but you will always have the bad apples that will bitch about anything for their whole career - true at any airline.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Land a CRJ around stall speed? The only thing I can think of is that when I see a CRJ coming in, it sure looks like it's about 1 deg aircraft nose down...That's probably why it seems like a 3 point landing (in the CRJ). It would be near imposible to do a 3 point in the ERJ as it comes down the 3 degree glide slope at about +1/2 deg. Just plant it on the RWY dude....

As for it decelerating faster near stall speed wrong......A plane decelerates faster once it's on the ground rather then bleeding the speed off in the air to achieve a near stall landing.

CRJ's are nose down because they don't have leading edge lift devices from what I've been told....check out the AOA on a CRJ70. Big difference....because it has slats.

-Neal

 

[CitationLover]

Citation - When I was a senior lineholder back in good times, people picked up OT. When we started furloughing, people picked up OT. Today, people still pick up OT. There will always be guys in it for themselves, regardless. Welcome to the APA, eat your young for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Me personally, I just didn't do it as a lineholder when we had guys out on the street. Never needed to.

Back to the brakes... I've ridden on 80s from TWA, AA, and DAL, and every so often you get one that rattles. It's just the brake system. For a TWA guy to say that AA's brakes sound the worst... well, yeah, he's probably got an ax to grind. I never noticed any difference between airlines. Most of those guys are cool as can be but you will always have the bad apples that will bitch about anything for their whole career - true at any airline.

aa73,

i respect you for taking a principled stance like that, as do alot of the new CA's here at Eagle (ie flowbies). i think the thing that gets most now is it seems AMR is actively counting on people to pick up OT so they can keep the airline understaffed and leave the 3000 on the street.

 

[8HourPilot]

We use full reverse on the E170 on every landing; unless you're landing on a 8000 runway and the terminal is upwind of the landing runway.
The brakes on the E170 have a bad problem of heating up and 1 out of the 4 Overtemping to the point it locks up and/or begins to smoke.

Dude, where are you getting this from?

 

[aa73]

aa73,

i think the thing that gets most now is it seems AMR is actively counting on people to pick up OT so they can keep the airline understaffed and leave the 3000 on the street.

Well Yeah! This is the very thing that has all of our panties in a bind! Have to say, I'm not surprised. A couple of months ago they came to the pilots asking for guys not to take vacation this summer and to pick up OT on days off, and the union told 'em to buzz off unless recalls were involved. Now it seems they are doing the same thing, again.

 

[JimNtexas]

have you heard your brakes in the S80's at AA? it sounds to me like you use no reverse at all. squeak squeal all the while taxiing. no criticism, just curious.

I rode in an AA S80 just today, and noticed the same thing. But the five across seating is worth the noise.

 

[mamba20]

jrav8tor, thats sure to get you in trouble when/if you have a low energy go around, you'll wish you had the extra speed. And dont even think about doing that with a check airmen or a fed on board. The 200 just lands that way, the 601 and 604 is the exact same way. Just the way the A/C is designed and it works fine. I think the 200 is about the easiest to land airplane I've ever flown.