RJ Crash Prelim

[172driver]

I only respond in kind after I am attacked. To wit, the hypocrisy you're showing here, insinuating that I am somehow endangering the lives of my passengers WHILE FLYING A CONSTANT M.74 CLIMB FROM 29,0 TO 33,0 because of a difference in TAS that isn't going to amount to jack sh*t in the REAL world, given YOUR flight experience as well, is ludicrous, not to mention assinine. THAT CLIMB SPEED IS OUR PUBLISHED COMPANY PROFILE!

I was not implying that you are endangering anyone's life, simply that you are conducting an experiment in which you don't understand the reasons for the results you are getting. .74 is of course a perfectly safe climb speed and is our company profile as well. The reason you think the decrease in TAS is negligible is because you were comparing two similar altitudes on a day with a nonstandard lapse. Then you come on here spouting off about what you found without even an inkling as to the reason behind it, until Singlecoil informed you of something these other guys have been trying to say all along.

My question to you is what is your company's published minimum climb speed? If none, what min speed would you feel comfortable climbing at? You already stated that you would be lucky to get .70 out of the CRJ at 410, implying that you have flown it at speeds lower than that. Like I said before, you are looking at 200 KIAS at that Mach # and less if you've flown it at lower speeds. For me, that is not an 'adequate margin above stall.'

There's another reason you're not the Captain. I'm certain there are many other Captains out there who feel perfectly comfortable flying this airplane around all day at 200 Kts clean. As long as there is an adequate margin between the stall speed and the IAS, I'll fly around all day at that given IAS

Yeah, they feel comfortable at low altitude flying at 200 or less clean, as do I, because there is a lot of excess thrust available at those altitudes. If the airspeed decays, you add more. At 410, the thrust levers are at the stops and if the a/s begins to bleed off due to temperature change, winds, turbulence, etc., your 'adequate margin' is suddenly gone and you are scrambling to lower the nose.

I could say the same for you. Once you've accumulated PIC time in just about every Lear out there (an aircraft that DOES fly at the edge of the envelope up at coffin corner), the 727, and then the CRJ, why don't you come back and have this discussion. Until then, why don't you read some more books in that glass house of YOURS.

I have already stated that your experience is more vast than mine. For you to continue to assert that your experience has made you more knowledgable than others is ridiculous. Experience and knowledge do not always go hand in hand. I fly the CRJ and I'm knowledgable about the CRJ and its limitations. No, I have not flown an airplane in which I had to be concerned about coffin corner. Does that make me less knowledgable about it? You and I both fly an airplane in which the high speed end of the coffin does not apply but at FL410, the slow side does apply, and the lack of thrust at altitude can put you in a corner just as tight.

 

[T-Gates]

There's another reason you're not the Captain. I'm certain there are many other Captains out there who feel perfectly comfortable flying this airplane around all day at 200 Kts clean. As long as there is an adequate margin between the stall speed and the IAS, I'll fly around all day at that given IAS.

Amen to that! I cannot tell you how many times I used to fly with guys who would get incredibly antsy flying around clean at 200 knots. It was almost like 215----> Flaps 20 All the time! And it was alwyas the guys who had a very shallow understanding of aerodynamics and a lack of confidence in the airplane. All irregardless of the fact we were well above the low speed cue.

 

[RJFlyer]

When I was brand new to the company and the airplane, I flew a trip with a Capt who ALWAYS had to go as high as possible, trying to do 390 or 410 every leg (CHS or RDU from DFW). When it's 5+ above ISA and heavy, the airplane doesn't like it, and this guy made me VERY uncomfortable - to the point when we leveled and the airplane wouldn't accelerate beyond .706 (at Climb power +.5%) I told him I was uncomfortable and we needed to descend.


However, when it's around ISA or less and the airplane's light, it'll get up there easily. Another time (and another Capt) we were going to RDU mostly empty, climbing through 350 at .75 and 700fpm. We kept climbing at that rate and mach all the way to 410 and were able to cruise at .77-.78. The airplane will do it, depending on the conditions.

Does anyone know what the ISA deviation was at 410 for the accident crew?

And since when does the CRJ stall in level flight at 200 KIAS clean?

 

[resetjetfo]

I'll Take That Bet, Gatorman

How about some Bryant's vs. any local Memphis BBQ?

DISCLAIMER: DO NOT INFER THAT THIS REFERS TO THE POSSIBLE EVENTS OF PINNACLE 3701

The CRJ can suffer a double engine failure if aerodynamically stalled. Not pusher, not shaker --stalled. At high altitudes, the shaker/pusher is not necessarily able to keep up with the rapidity of the stall event. The airflow into the engines is blocked....simultaneous double engine failure. At lower altitudes, the greater atmospheric density slows the event, full stall not likely.

This is not just a CRJ problem. Look at past accident reports. The have been previous high-altitude flameouts from just such a situation. Trying to top wx in a Lear or Sabre, flameout, now you're in it.

Fuel IS NOT the only thing that will cause double engine failure.

In defense of Lear 70, I have flown with him on the line. He knows what he is doing, and he is SAFE. Some guys have a problem with him, but that's more politics. Rest assured he is motivated by the right things.

FLY SAFE!

 

[jetflyer]

I have flown the RJ for two years, and the thing is a pig.

On a regular day with a full load you have to climb at no more than 500 fpm through the upper 20's. Granted this is with a heavy plane. I have a hard time believing the CRJ-200 can ever make it up to FL410 especially without leveling off to keep your speed.

The CRJ-200 would be way better with more powerful engines.

At Comair we are limited to climb at 250kts/.70 mach. We have this limit so the airplane is not stalled and so the engines get enough air.

It will be really interesting to see what their speed was at the point of the double engine failure.

Jet

 

[T-Gates]

I have a hard time believing the CRJ-200 can ever make it up to FL410 especially without leveling off to keep your speed.

Well...It Did....As many others have said and done. So your point is??

 

[jetflyer]

No need to be a smart a@@ t-gates.

If you read my post I said I can't see the CRJ climbing to FL410 especially without leveling off to keep your speed. As others have said it can be done. I personally can't believe it but like you said t-gates others have done it.

The plane should always be flown above the green line.

If these guys did make it up to FL410 in practically record time I'm betting the results will show that their speed was somewhere near or below the green line.

I'm basically saying I think a lack of speed at that FL will be found to have caused the double engine failure.

THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION, and if the company had no policy to keep the speed above a certain level in a climb, the company nor the pilots can be faulted.

 

[hmmm]

Thats what the airline in questions lower airspeed LIMIT is also. Just like Comair. Listed on page PER-51 of the FCOM 2 as 250/.70 and a 300 FPM climb.

Doesn't mean you have to climb at .70. It only means the lowest limit is 250/.70 and a 300 FPM climb.

If you can make it all the way to the altitude shown on the chart for your temp and weight and can do it at 500 FPM and .74 on a good cold day so be it.

Just a couple days ago we were FILED for 370 and climbed all the way there after transitioning to Mach at .74 and 500 FPM at ISA +2 with a weight of 45000 when we got there.

If we had to we COULD have asked ATC for a 300 FPM climb as a lower climb speed limit for the last thousand feet or so in accordance with the PER-51 chart and then put the nose over to 400 FPM and then maybe later to 300 FPM to maintain .70 and then leveling off keep in climb power till we reached the FILED .76 MACH and then set CRZ power in acoordance with the cruise power charts above FL360 per the limitation.

And I back Lear 70. He has quite a bit more real experience than most.

 

[Freddie Spencer]

They stalled it at FL410 (at least according to MY source in the investigation).

 

[T-Gates]

No need to be a smart a@@ t-gates.

If you read my post I said I can't see the CRJ climbing to FL410 especially without leveling off to keep your speed. As others have said it can be done. I personally can't believe it but like you said t-gates others have done it.

I read the post, and no smart-ass comment was meant. I'm just not sure what you're getting at. You say you can't see it, but then you concede that you believe the rest of us that it can be done. I'm just trying to make sense of it....

Peace Bro...