Right seat time building?

[Myster79]

I called the Feds over this years ago. I was told if you are typed in the aircraft and you are soul manipulator of the controls then you are the PIC in the feds eyes. I called FSDO's and DC and they all said the same thing.

 

[transpac]

I called the Feds over this years ago. I was told if you are typed in the aircraft and you are soul manipulator of the controls then you are the PIC in the feds eyes. I called FSDO's and DC and they all said the same thing.

For pilot time logging purposes the feds told you correctly. But, the actual PIC of the flight as (defined in FAR 1) does not shift to the flying pilot unless agreed to by all concerned including the legal operator of the aircraft. There's no serious argument that the regulations do not permit both a FAR 1 PIC and a rated sole manipulator to log PIC time. But, the concern of some is that while "sole manipulator" PIC time is legal, it isn't a true reflection of command experience.

 

[Pervis]

More importantly, can I log X-Country from ORD to PWK?

 

[clydefastly]

More importantly, can I log X-Country from ORD to PWK?

I can't tell if you are joking or not so:
Yes, unless you are a student pilot working toward a ppl, then it needs to be over 50 miles to count as x-country.

 

[glasspilot]

Here comes my .02

All the FAA cares about is you have to log:

1. Recent experience for things like 3 take offs and landings during day / nite to carry pax unless your operator has a waiver

2. IFR stuff to be current unless your operator has a waiver

3. Your experiance to get a rating or certificate (TT, XC, Nite, ect)

After that you can log the time you drive a car and recipes for apple pie.

The only other two reasons to keep a log book is to show a potential employer and personal reasons (I simply like the idea that I know exactly how many hours I've flown and where I've been.) As far as the potential employer is concerned I can't imagine they would agree that a typed FO "manipulating the controls" is quality PIC time so for that reason I don't log it. When I'm an FO I log SIC. When I'm a Captain I log PIC. Seems simple enough.

 

[wacoflyr]

How's the back? I like ibuprophen, but I'm sure just rest is good...
Hope it gets better.

 

[Lord Wakefield]

Here is the real scoop on logging time.

PIC can be logged one of two ways.

The captain in command of the flight - and only he - can log PIC under FAR 1. The FO can log SIC under FAR 1.

Reference FAR 1.1
The sole manipulator of the controls - either captain or FO - can log PIC under FAR 61.

Reference FAR 61.51


My suggestion is that if an FO chooses to log TPIC under FAR 61, that you also log the time under FAR 1 SIC. I keep a separate column labeled "FAR 61 TPIC." I have never had any problems or questions from an interviewer about this, but be aware that the requirements for some companies specifically list a certain amount of FAR 1 PIC time.

This is what the FARs and the FAA say. If anyone tells you anything different, ask them for a reference.

61.51 applies to the purpose of logging flight time towards a higher certificate or rating. At this point, it's irrelevant because both pilots are type rated ATPs. The only purpose for "logging PIC" time at this point is resume building in which case most employers will be asking for your time according to FAR 1.
NETJETS will be tracking time according to FAR 1.

 

[glasspilot]

How's the back? I like ibuprophen, but I'm sure just rest is good...
Hope it gets better.

Wow, news travels fast. Back still hurts but I am hopeful to get home tomorrow.

Here's a tip for anyone seeking medical attention in Danville, VA.

...don't.

I went to the fricken hospital ER with a bum back. Not one doctor or RN or anyone even looked at it. They took my blood pressure and pulse for 4 hours, but not one examination. They did, however, give me a prescription for drugs so I guess it wasn't a complete waste.

 

[wacoflyr]

.....

 

[gunfyter]

So when the Autopilot is on who logs part 61 PIC time?

 

[transpac]

So when the Autopilot is on who logs part 61 PIC time?

I dunno...Who is controlling a car when the cruise control is on?

And, comparing airplanes to cars, which person is gaining driving experience:

1. The person who's actually driving the vehicle?

2. The person in charge of the trip who is in the right rear seat or possibly asleep in the rear?

 

[glasspilot]

If you think a typed FO manipulating the controls equals PIC experience then you must believe both pilots should be paid the same. Why should the Captain make one penny more if its the same job worthy of logging PIC?

Oh I know, because it's not the same. The PIC (Captain) has the responsibility. If something goes wrong it's his ass. Therefore when a decision comes up it's his decision. The regs are very clear. A 121, 135, 91K operator must clearly specifiy who is the PIC and the FAA give that person wide latitude to handle problems but also hold that person responsible.

No way the guy who is not the designated PIC should be logging PIC. If I were on a hiring committee and someone showed me a log book with that sort of PIC time loged I would discount the entire lot and ask why he thought it was appropriate to present it as PIC. If he said anything relating to the arguments presented here I don't think we'd have much to talk about.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

I take it NJ doesn't swap seats? I did not know that.

 

[transpac]

If you think a typed FO manipulating the controls equals PIC experience then you must believe both pilots should be paid the same. Why should the Captain make one penny more if its the same job worthy of logging PIC?

Oh I know, because it's not the same. The PIC (Captain) has the responsibility. If something goes wrong it's his ass. Therefore when a decision comes up it's his decision. The regs are very clear. A 121, 135, 91K operator must clearly specifiy who is the PIC and the FAA give that person wide latitude to handle problems but also hold that person responsible.

No way the guy who is not the designated PIC should be logging PIC. If I were on a hiring committee and someone showed me a log book with that sort of PIC time loged I would discount the entire lot and ask why he thought it was appropriate to present it as PIC. If he said anything relating to the arguments presented here I don't think we'd have much to talk about.

You don't understand what PIC time actually is and you're mixing apples and oranges. And, because of your ignorance you would deny employment to an applicant who is unaware of your personal preferences and instead maintains his or her logbook as directed by the FARs. You want PIC time to equate to the literal definition of PIC. That's logical, but that's not what the FAA wants. (Before you make some stupid comment about my logbook, be advised that when I was a co-pilot I didn't understand the regulations about logging flight time either. Therefore, all my PIC time reflects only the time aloft that I was designated as the PIC, including a fair amount of time when I was asleep in the crew rest bunk.).

 

[transpac]

glasspilot:

I may have spoken too soon about not personally logging any "sole manipulator" time as PIC. I broke out my old Navy logbook and find that it doesn't even have a column for "Aircraft Commander" time, just "first pilot, second pilot, and special crew time. Most employers consider first pilot time to be the same as civilian PIC time. We had an Aircraft Commander block on the paperwork turned in at the completion of the flight but it wasn't entered into individual logbooks. First Pilot time was given to whomever was flying the airplane in theory, in practice it was usually split 50/50 between the Aircraft Commander and the Co-Pilot. The bottom line is there is no way other than an unreliable memory to separate the real PIC time from the "sole manipulator time. Therefore, you'll need to reject for employment every ex-Navy and Marine pilot with multi-crew time if you're going to be consistent in applying your personal standards. I have no idea how the AF and Army logs time, or even how the Navy does it nowadays, but I suspect it will be very similar to the way described.

 

[jonjuan]

glasspilot:

I may have spoken too soon about not personally logging any "sole manipulator" time as PIC. I broke out my old Navy logbook and find that it doesn't even have a column for "Aircraft Commander" time, just "first pilot, second pilot, and special crew time. Most employers consider first pilot time to be the same as civilian PIC time. We had an Aircraft Commander block on the paperwork turned in at the completion of the flight but it wasn't entered into individual logbooks. First Pilot time was given to whomever was flying the airplane in theory, in practice it was usually split 50/50 between the Aircraft Commander and the Co-Pilot. The bottom line is there is no way other than an unreliable memory to separate the real PIC time from the "sole manipulator time. Therefore, you'll need to reject for employment every ex-Navy and Marine pilot with multi-crew time if you're going to be consistent in applying your personal standards. I have no idea how the AF and Army logs time, or even how the Navy does it nowadays, but I suspect it will be very similar to the way described.

Southwest Airlines (and many others) definition of PIC. Most believe they are the gold standard. Many have been shot down during an interview when time was calculated otherwise:
3 Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" for the purposes of application for employment as the Pilot ultimately responsible for the operation and Safety of the aircraft during flight. The Pilot in Command should also be the Pilot who signed for the aircraft and who is the ultimate authority for the operation of that flight. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander, Evaluator, or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged as "Other Time" will not be considered. When converting taxi time a conversion factor of .3 or 18 minutes, per leg/sortie should be used. These guidelines are imposed by Southwest Airlines for the purpose of standardizing the calculation of flight time.

 

[glasspilot]

I came off too hard about not hiring someone based on how they log their time. Sorry.

But I do not log any PIC time unless I'm, well, the PIC. I do not think I'll have any trouble explaining that theory to anyone be it an interview or FAA (not that the FAA cares).

There was a particular flight school in Florida that had a great way to build time for it's students. They would put two ME rated pilots in a Seminole, send 'em on a X-Country and they would both log it. No CFI on board...just two guys logging PIC. To get away with this they would make one guy wear a view limiting device thereby making the other guy a "required crewmember" as safety pilot. Perfect right?

I don't think so. First, we all know that nobody actually wore the foggles and so what if they did. I don't think the guy sitting there looking for traffic is really building his skills as a pilot. Remember, we're talking about 100 hours guys here.

 

[transpac]

Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft.

Southwest is treating military time precisely the same as the FAA treats civilian time iaw FAR 61.51: Sole manipulator time by a rated (type rated in the case of a large aircraft) pilot is logged as PIC time. Just like in the civilian world, just because one passes an upgrade check for aircraft commander (In other words, gets type rated) does not mean one was the aircraft commander on a specific flight.

 

[transpac]

I came off too hard about not hiring someone based on how they log their time. Sorry.

But I do not log any PIC time unless I'm, well, the PIC. I do not think I'll have any trouble explaining that theory to anyone be it an interview or FAA (not that the FAA cares).

There was a particular flight school in Florida that had a great way to build time for it's students. They would put two ME rated pilots in a Seminole, send 'em on a X-Country and they would both log it. No CFI on board...just two guys logging PIC. To get away with this they would make one guy wear a view limiting device thereby making the other guy a "required crewmember" as safety pilot. Perfect right?

I don't think so. First, we all know that nobody actually wore the foggles and so what if they did. I don't think the guy sitting there looking for traffic is really building his skills as a pilot. Remember, we're talking about 100 hours guys here.

I agree there's many out there who game the system and I too would question a applicant whom I suspected of this practice. But, I think sole manipulator time is pretty good experience whether or not the sole manipulator had ultimate decision making authority. Personally I think there's a ton of difference between SIC time that involves keeping the seat warm and SIC time that involves performing the flying pilot's duties and responsibilities. Unfortunately, the FAA hasn't come up with a way to differentiate this time other than logging the sole manipulator time as PIC. I wish there was a pilot time category to cover this situation (maybe pilot in control?), but that's just me.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

3 PIC's in one twin

I came off too hard about not hiring someone based on how they log their time. Sorry.

But I do not log any PIC time unless I'm, well, the PIC. I do not think I'll have any trouble explaining that theory to anyone be it an interview or FAA (not that the FAA cares).

There was a particular flight school in Florida that had a great way to build time for it's students. They would put two ME rated pilots in a Seminole, send 'em on a X-Country and they would both log it. No CFI on board...just two guys logging PIC. To get away with this they would make one guy wear a view limiting device thereby making the other guy a "required crewmember" as safety pilot. Perfect right?

I don't think so. First, we all know that nobody actually wore the foggles and so what if they did. I don't think the guy sitting there looking for traffic is really building his skills as a pilot. Remember, we're talking about 100 hours guys here.

Hold on to your hat...

A lot of these type of operations (ME time building) take it a step further than what you've detailed above. Aside from the two MELs up front logging PIC twin time, they station an MEI in the back seat (yes - the back seat) who logs PIC as well. They claim the arrangement perfectly legal as the MEI is theoretically providing instruction and thus logs PIC.