Right seat time building?

[NJAowner]

Just an onservation. My last 7 or 8 NJA flights have all been flown with the right seat "in command". Is this coincidence or is there an effort to build time for the right seat pilots in this tough economy?

Fly safe.

 

[BeeDubya]

Just an onservation. My last 7 or 8 NJA flights have all been flown with the right seat "in command". Is this coincidence or is there an effort to build time for the right seat pilots in this tough economy?

Fly safe.

Whether acting as "pilot flying" (meaning: actually manipulating the flight controls) or as "non-flying pilot," First Officers (right seat pilots) can log all the flight time as SIC (second in command). So, I'd guess this is probably a coincidence.

However, when I first started at NJ (in 2002), the general practice was for Captains to act as "pilot flying" for all passenger legs, and First Officers for all ferry flights. Over time, and as we are becoming more efficient with fewer ferry flights, it is becoming more common for the crews to swap back and forth each leg, passenger or ferry.

Hope that helps and that your flights were enjoyable.

Brian

 

[jtf]

There is a lot of debate as to whether or not the flying pilot can log PIC time if he is the First Officer. As far as being able to "build time" goes, both pilots can log the time even when not at the controls since most jets require two pilots to fly- one typically logs the time as Pilot in Command and the other typically logs it as Second in Command. My guess is that since most of the pilots take turns flying individual flights, you just happened to get on a roll of right seaters having their turn.

 

[blueridge71]

Here is the real scoop on logging time.

PIC can be logged one of two ways.

The captain in command of the flight - and only he - can log PIC under FAR 1. The FO can log SIC under FAR 1.

Reference FAR 1.1

Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

The sole manipulator of the controls - either captain or FO - can log PIC under FAR 61.

Reference FAR 61.51

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

My suggestion is that if an FO chooses to log TPIC under FAR 61, that you also log the time under FAR 1 SIC. I keep a separate column labeled "FAR 61 TPIC." I have never had any problems or questions from an interviewer about this, but be aware that the requirements for some companies specifically list a certain amount of FAR 1 PIC time.

This is what the FARs and the FAA say. If anyone tells you anything different, ask them for a reference.

 

[BuckMurdock1]

Just an onservation. My last 7 or 8 NJA flights have all been flown with the right seat "in command". Is this coincidence or is there an effort to build time for the right seat pilots in this tough economy?

Fly safe.

I'd assume the inference is in regard to the 495 pilots about to be let go. As is mentioned above, it is simply coincidence that the SIC has been flying. Standard practice to swap flying every leg.
Actually- the 495 pilots that will be hitting the street are mostly (I would guess) in posession of thousands of hours as captain in regional jets and the like-- aircraft larger than any at NJA. It is not uncommon these days at NJA for your SIC's overall
experience and PIC time in larger a/c to outweigh that of their PIC counterparts. Just the way the recruiting pendulum swung in the last few yrs-- NJA attracted a HUGE amount of pilots who were 'qualified' to begin a career with the legacy carriers. (the 2007 industry-leading contract had a lot to do w/it)

The problem for the soon-to-be jobless folks is not a lack of experience generally: just no jobs.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

The problem for the soon-to-be jobless folks is not a lack of experience generally: just no jobs.

Man... that's a fact, jack!


Well put.

 

[gunfyter]

About 1/2 the FO's I fly with have more flight experience than my 10,000 plus hours.... Just not as many years and hours at NJA. SIcs have exactly the same training as the Captains... except only 2 checkflights instead of 3 per year.

You can see who is flying the leg in our airplanes but you can't at the Airlines ... where every other leg is flown from the Right seat.

It use to be upgrade to Captain came quickly here... so SICs wanted to get as much flying from the Left set as possible ... therefore they flew left seat on empty legs. Now it will be many years to upgrade so everyone wants to stay and fly from their own seats....

I would have absolutely no concern about which seat a flight is being flown from... while on a Fractional. Its not like the Regional Airlines where SICs can have as little as 400 hours total experience... nd there is a BIG difference in experience between the Captain and SIC.

Thats my opinion.

As a matter of fact, I believe the SICs at NJA were hired under a MORE competitive and selective hiring conditions due to the fact the 2005 CBA increased compensation high enough to attract more people with more experience than before.

With the coming furlough ... we are losing 495 of the Best pilots in the industry.

 

[steelersrule74]

As a matter of fact, I believe the SICs at NJA were hired under a MORE competitive and selective hiring conditions due to the fact the 2005 CBA increased compensation high enough to attract more people with more experience than before.

well said and that's exactly right. to paraphrase an infamous poster here:

Oh, and I've said this before.. contracts for PILOTS are offered to attract and maintain quality employees...

 

[glasspilot]

This whole right seat PIC issue was already addressed in a company memo. I'll post it again here. By the way, NJA used to be heavily influenced by the British for reasons that remain a mystery to this day.


Eary 1990's 'ish NJA memo:

There appears to be some confusion over the new pilot role titles. This
notice will hopefully clear up any misunderstandings. The titles P1, P2
and Co-Pilot will now cease to have any meaning, within the NJA operations
manuals. They are to be replaced by Handling Pilot, Non-handling Pilot,
Handling Landing Pilot, Non-Handling Landing Pilot, Handling Non-Landing
Pilot, and Non Handling Non-Landing Pilot.



The Landing Pilot, is initially the Handling Pilot and will handle the take-off and landing except in role
reversal when he is the Non-Handling Pilot for taxi until the Handling
Non-Landing Pilot, hands the handling to the Landing Pilot at eighty knots.
The Non-Landing (Non-Handling, since the Landing Pilot is handling) Pilot
reads the checklist to the Handling Pilot until after Before Descent
Checklist completion, when the Handling Landing Pilot hands the handling to
the Non-Handling Non-Landing Pilot who then becomes the Handling
Non-Landing Pilot.

The Landing Pilot is the Non-Handling Pilot until the "decision altitude"
call, when the Handling Non-Landing Pilot hands the handling to the
Non-Handling Landing Pilot, unless the latter calls "go-around", in which
case the Handling Non-Landing Pilot, continues Handling and the
Non-Handling Landing Pilot continues non-handling until the next call of
"land" or "go-around", as appropriate.

 

[NJAowner]

Glasspilot -- that is a tongue twister.

My question was not raised from a safety standpoint. I dod not have any concern that the right seat pilot did not have thousands of hours and training.

Fly safe.

 

[Flex-ible]

A couple of observations:
1. Flex captains were always good about swapping legs with F/O's: some every other leg, some every other day. I never felt that I was a second class citizen up there.
2. On my last rotation pre-furlough, the captain I was flying with let me fly 90% of the legs. I thought it was a really classy thing to do.

 

[whiskytangofoxt]

great Cam I forgot what I do, where does "man in taxi" come into that memo?

 

[smartelephant]

were both pilots captain's? If so, then it was the guy in the right seats turn to fly.

 

[Willy21]

were both pilots captain's? If so, then it was the guy in the right seats turn to fly.

Nope, I am a sic, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

[BuckMurdock1]

were both pilots captain's?

According to a recurring WSJ advertisement, that is always the case at NJA.

 

[transpac]

Here is the real scoop on logging time.

PIC can be logged one of two ways.

The captain in command of the flight - and only he - can log PIC under FAR 1. The FO can log SIC under FAR 1.

Reference FAR 1.1
The sole manipulator of the controls - either captain or FO - can log PIC under FAR 61.

Reference FAR 61.51


My suggestion is that if an FO chooses to log TPIC under FAR 61, that you also log the time under FAR 1 SIC. I keep a separate column labeled "FAR 61 TPIC." I have never had any problems or questions from an interviewer about this, but be aware that the requirements for some companies specifically list a certain amount of FAR 1 PIC time.

This is what the FARs and the FAA say. If anyone tells you anything different, ask them for a reference.

That's actually not what the FAR's say. FAR 1 contains definitions and abbreviations used by the FAA and is not applicible to logging flight time. The only FAA regulation pertaining to logging flight time is FAR 61.51. IMHO, the confusion arises because the FAA and many employers see things differently. The FAA's concern is that applicants for certificates and ratings have a certain amount of hands-on experience driving airplanes. Whether or not this experience was obtained while being in command of the aircraft is of no interest to them. The one exception to the rule is that private pilots must have some command experience (solo time) before certification. OTOH, many employers want applicants to have a track record making command decisions while flying. This could be a valuable measure of command experience but it could also be a poor way of comparing hands-on flying experience: The PIC is likely only controlling the aircraft for roughly half the amount of PIC time logged. OTOH, a rated SIC can legally log as PIC only that time that he/she is actually controlling the airplane. Also, the real PIC might be absent from the flight deck during a significant amount of the time logged as PIC during 3 pilot operations. The FAA muddies the water a lot by not separating pilot in control time from pilot in command time. In the Old Navy we had aircraft commander, first pilot, and second pilot categories. The AC time was command time and did not count toward total time or recency of experience. The first pilot and second pilot time was similar to the FAA's PIC/SIC time. The FAA would do well by adopting a similar system.

 

[brokeflyer]

Just an onservation. My last 7 or 8 NJA flights have all been flown with the right seat "in command". Is this coincidence or is there an effort to build time for the right seat pilots in this tough economy?

Fly safe.

many have hijacked this thread to try and justify what they put in the logbook.

To anwser your question sir, and although retired, I thank you for your time spent with NJA.

Both pilots are rated and trained the same on the plane you fly on. Basicly, they are both "captains". The crews will trade flying every leg and sometimes that means the right seat pilot may fly your leg. This isnt a safety issue, it isnt an ego issue.

Remember, the right seat pilot at NJ today most likely has SEVERAL years and SEVERAL thousand more hours of experience than the PIC on your flight. Id trust my family with any of our First Officers any day of the week and twice on bad weather days.

You get what you pay for.

 

[RNObased]

Glasspilot -- that is a tongue twister.

My question was not raised from a safety standpoint. I dod not have any concern that the right seat pilot did not have thousands of hours and training.

Fly safe.

Well then I'm confused as to what the question is. The guy in the right seat flying isn't in command of the aircraft, or possibly he is, depends.

Many of the true FOs I fly with, fly very, very well from either seat. However it is still my plane.

 

[Helmsalee]

RNO, you hit it. I am a NJ SIC. I have over 23000 hours. That doesn't matter. If I am flying a leg, the PIC is still in command(it's his plane as you put it). But I fly half of the legs, usually from the right seat. That is what NJAOwner probably saw.

 

[SDCFI]

You mean you guys aren't building time so you can one day fly commercial?