Right Eng Fail and Fire FMS & A/P inop on a missed MEM 36L

[AvroJockey]

Perhaps your instructor was referring to some sort of ASAP/Aerodata that requires a different kind of missed approach with an engine out than the normal missed that is published on the charts.

Since when did Aerodata change missed approach criteria? I've only seen departure procedures.

Tim

 

[crxpilot]

Ah you are absolutely right Tim. I was in the departure procedure thinking, I forgot he was asking about missed approaches.

Since when did Aerodata change missed approach criteria? I've only seen departure procedures.

Tim

 

[SoBeFlyer]

I did a little research...

First off, here's a blurb from part 91:

Sec. 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for,
and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot
in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required
to meet that emergency.
(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph
(b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a
written report of that deviation to the Administrator.

Second, the "Climb to 1000 then climbing turn to 5000" in the MAP is there for one of two reasons:
(a) There is an obstacle in the direction of turn that requires 1000' MSL to clear it safely, or
(b) The people who live in the direction of turn have bugged their congressperson about aircraft noise.

Checking the pubs, there are no "Non-standard Departure Minimums" for 36L at KMEM. This should give you the warm and fuzzy that your transport certified jet can climb above any nearby obstacle with the critical engine inoperative, especially since you are performing an approach climb (climb started at approach end, not departure end). This means that the 1000' prior to turn is for Joe/Jane voter, who I say can sc*&w themselves when an airplane is in trouble. For your concern about turning ABOVE 1000' instead of AT 1000', I'd refer any jacka*$ complaining about that to Part 91.3(b) as above, and then tell them you will write the letter explaining yourself to comply with Part 91.3(c).

My $0.02.

 

[rgd]

The missed approach is what give you your obstacle clearance. You would have to make your turn at the prescribed altitude on the missed approach instructions. Your instructor is wrong and yes, you would bust. The 1000' straight out is only for a takeoff, unless there is some DP, or possibly if it was vmc and you could visually maintain obstacle avoidance on a go around (not a missed approach). Granted you can delcare an emergency and do whatever you want to do to meet that emergency, but that missed is there for a reason and as a professional pilot, you should (not saying you don't) have the skills to handle this situation. Every person out there that has taken a 121 checkride has had to do it. As far as a checkride goes, you don't get the option of declaring and going straight out. The fed is gonna what to see you do the missed single engine, with the proper turns and leveling at the proper acceleration altitude. You should climb to 1000' msl and make your right turn, level off at 1320 msl (1000' agl) accelerate and retract flaps and then climb to 5000' msl at Vt, enter your hold. Your instructer needs some serious re-training. Good luck.

 

["Next Wave"]

You can declare and fly straight out(if you want)

SOBEFLYER is correct, 91.3
I dont understand why people think that just because your in the sim
you have to fly what you think the examiner or POI wants to see, not true
they cannot fail you for declaring and taking control of the situation. If fact thats really how we would do it in "real life" . You'll handle it exactly how you train for it.

I did a little research...

First off, here's a blurb from part 91:

Sec. 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for,
and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot
in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required
to meet that emergency.
(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph
(b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a
written report of that deviation to the Administrator.

Second, the "Climb to 1000 then climbing turn to 5000" in the MAP is there for one of two reasons:
(a) There is an obstacle in the direction of turn that requires 1000' MSL to clear it safely, or
(b) The people who live in the direction of turn have bugged their congressperson about aircraft noise.

Checking the pubs, there are no "Non-standard Departure Minimums" for 36L at KMEM. This should give you the warm and fuzzy that your transport certified jet can climb above any nearby obstacle with the critical engine inoperative, especially since you are performing an approach climb (climb started at approach end, not departure end). This means that the 1000' prior to turn is for Joe/Jane voter, who I say can sc*&w themselves when an airplane is in trouble. For your concern about turning ABOVE 1000' instead of AT 1000', I'd refer any jacka*$ complaining about that to Part 91.3(b) as above, and then tell them you will write the letter explaining yourself to comply with Part 91.3(c).

My $0.02.

 

[100LL... Again!]

If you read the TERPS manual, youu will notice that a certain turn raius is expected and planned for when the missed is designed. I do not have the number at the ready, but I know it is not a very wide path. Suppose the company decides that acceleration altitude is now 1500'. Suppose you are going missed at an airport with terrain immediately off the end of the approach runway.

As far as the missed being only for a no radio situation, he is confused as to what he is thinking.

It is true that one reason that the miss is published is to allow for a no radio procedure, but that is not the only reason. Anyway, read the terps. Your missed approach track assumes that all turns are made as specified.

Interesting thing, though, is that the miss assumes all airplanes climb at 152 ft per NM. So, an airplane with good one-eng climb performance will arrive at the turning altitude before a slow climber.

 

[rgd]

You will bust the ride if you can't do a single engine missed, period. You can tell the fed that you have delcared and your going straight out, and he is gonna say "great, then we will do it again and this time fly the missed". If you F it up, you bust. He has to see that you can control the A/C path both vertically and horizontally, you can do the missed approach procedure, and that you can clean up the A/C on schedule and at the proper altitudes. The FAA does not issue type ratings that say "approved for all operations except in mountainous areas, special airports, or airports without departure procedures that your not supposed to apply to the missed approach anyway."

 

[rgd]

BTW, jets don't have critical engines.

 

[AvroJockey]

BTW, jets don't have critical engines.

Actually, think there is technically a critical engine on even twin jets. An upwind engine failure is more critical than a downwind engine failure. Additionally, for jets with more than 2 engines, there is a critical engine. For example, the Avro/146 it's the outboard upwind engine.

FYI, usually Check Airmen/APDs will fail this engine in a V1 cut, so if you think there's going to be a V1 cut on TO, ask for a wind check.

 

[rgd]

I thought of the three engine and four engine after I posted, but so few fly these now days didn't bother posting it and if you have three or four engines, one failing is not as critical like a two engine.There is no critical on a two engine jet. I have never heard the upwind, downwind theory, but you can just turn the airplane and it goes from being upwind to downwind. This is not true with prop airplanes.

 

[AvroJockey]

I thought of the three engine and four engine after I posted, but so few fly these now days didn't bother posting it and if you have three or four engines, one failing is not as critical like a two engine.There is no critical on a two engine jet. I have never heard the upwind, downwind theory, but you can just turn the airplane and it goes from being upwind to downwind. This is not true with prop airplanes.

In many transport catagory jets there is significant amout of time between V1 and Vr, when your still on the ground. It's harder to maintain directional control during this period when the upwind engine fails, because not only do you have to correct for the engine failure with opposite rudder, but you also have to correct for crosswind with the same rudder input. This is not the case with a downwind engine failure, because the crosswind helps correct for the failed engine.

Your correct in saying that an engine failure in aircraft with more than two engines is not as critical. In the Avro, if the engine just spools down (ie. no fire or catistrophic failure) it is not considered an emergency, you may even elect to continue to your destination. Happened to a friend of mine on the Avro out if NW Arkansas Regional, they just secured it and went on thier merry way to Memphis.

 

[gump88]

Need help from experienced long term aviators that have been taking Captain check rides for many years in 121 jet service.


Missed Approach reads
"Climb to 1000' then climbing right turn to 5000' outbound via the MEM VOR R-323 to MREON INT/D18.0 and hold.

The above I just did in the sim.

I wanted to tun out at 700 agl which is 1000' MSL for ILS 36L in Memphis with a TDZE of 321'

For our profile this would be right after selecting the auto pilot on at 600 agl.

The instructor said the Missed Approach procedure is only for if the radios are out.

He said the "Climb to 1000' MSL then climbing LEFT turn is the minimum altitude to turn.

In the scenario above I would have turned at or above 1300 MSL which is just after selecting a climb on the Flight Director at VT speed aprox 170 kts.

1300 MSL is 1000 AGL which is our companies acceleration altitude.


I have been sitting here lookinga all over the regs the internet and the AIM to fin out if what the instructor said is correct that 1000 MSL is the minimum only for the turn and that I can turn a little later after the priority of taking care of the engine out profile.

Please help before my check ride.

Don't want to turn out late if its not legal.

This was the worst the instructor could find for me.

Right engine Failure

Right engine Fire

Autopilot Inop

FMS Inop



Thanks Really Apreciate the help




.

The missed procedure said turn RIGHT and you turned LEFT?? You bust!
Just my opinion, but in the above example, I would have continued the turn at V2 and 1/2 bank until I was established on the heading to intercept the radial. Then I would accelerate, clean it up, and continue with the QRH, all the while briefing my NFP of my intentions. Flying the missed exactly as published is your only guaranteed way of clearing obstacles and other aircraft. During an instrument approach, ATC only protects the missed area from other traffic. If you turn the wrong way, you could hit another plane as well as cumolusgranite.

g

 

[hmmm]

The missed procedure said turn RIGHT and you turned LEFT?? You bust!

Yes well it was a typo. Sorry I had been awake many hours trying to figure out where this fella came up with what he was having me do on that training ride.

And thanks for all the comments. With the info presented you fellas have confirmed my own thoughts and what I dug up in the TERPS
40 to 1 ratios and 200 ft per mile and as modified by terrain in that type of environment.

What I did on the actual checkride today wa fly exactly as published. And when we actually had an emergency situation I had the NFP ask for straight out due to the emergency. Of course I didn't get it and enjoyed knowing the option wasn't wanted by the check airman and could focus on the procedure at hand.

Yes Yes I feel and say the same way.

I don't know why the NFP Flight instructor didn't over-ride the actual instructor.

Good thing we always second guess something that doesn't sound right.

 

[minrest]

hmmm,

I'm having a difficult time understanding the nature of your "bust." You busted because you flew the wrong missed approach procedure or because you didn't take command of the aircraft? I've seen a lot of busts at my company (also a regional) for failure to command the aircraft. I know that our company's check-airmen are equally concerned with your ability to command as well as fly the aircraft. The check-airmen are especially concerned because this is usually the applicant's first attempt to gain a type rating in an air transport aircraft.

While I believe your examiner sounds like an a$$hole, he may have been concerned with you inability to take control of the aircraft. You state, "I don't know why the NFP Flight instructor didn't over-ride the actual instructor." Probably because it's not his job; it's the Captain's.

Good luck on the next go-around and don't get overconsumed with the bust. Just remember, the sim ride is reality and you are the PIC. Period.

-minrest.

 

[igneousy2]

hmmm,

I'm having a difficult time understanding the nature of your "bust." You busted because you flew the wrong missed approach procedure or because you didn't take command of the aircraft? I've seen a lot of busts at my company (also a regional) for failure to command the aircraft. I know that our company's check-airmen are equally concerned with your ability to command as well as fly the aircraft. The check-airmen are especially concerned because this is usually the applicant's first attempt to gain a type rating in an air transport aircraft.

While I believe your examiner sounds like an a$$hole, he may have been concerned with you inability to take control of the aircraft. You state, "I don't know why the NFP Flight instructor didn't over-ride the actual instructor." Probably because it's not his job; it's the Captain's.

Good luck on the next go-around and don't get overconsumed with the bust. Just remember, the sim ride is reality and you are the PIC. Period.

-minrest.

I think the original post was talking about his prep-ride before his checkride, which he passed, he subsequently took the checkride and apparently passed.

Congrats.

It is against the inspector manuals for them to give you compound failures, but what are you going to do. go to the local FSDO and complain? They'll just back-up their own guys, just like you would.

My last type ride I had a single engine, jammed elevator (no autopilot, no flaps), with the only approach available a circle off of a non-precision approach to a major U.S. airport with many approaches,

"Approach, declaring emergency, request ILS 4...sorry OTS...ILS 7...sorry OTS...how about vectors to ILS nearby airport..." Just as I let up my PTT the fuel-low warning light illuminated, 10 seconds before we had 3 hours of fuel left. I guess we had a fuel leak.

I passed the ride inspite of this so I got no complaints.

Later