Right Eng Fail and Fire FMS & A/P inop on a missed MEM 36L

[100LL... Again!]

If you read the TERPS manual, youu will notice that a certain turn raius is expected and planned for when the missed is designed. I do not have the number at the ready, but I know it is not a very wide path. Suppose the company decides that acceleration altitude is now 1500'. Suppose you are going missed at an airport with terrain immediately off the end of the approach runway.

As far as the missed being only for a no radio situation, he is confused as to what he is thinking.

It is true that one reason that the miss is published is to allow for a no radio procedure, but that is not the only reason. Anyway, read the terps. Your missed approach track assumes that all turns are made as specified.

Interesting thing, though, is that the miss assumes all airplanes climb at 152 ft per NM. So, an airplane with good one-eng climb performance will arrive at the turning altitude before a slow climber.

 

[rgd]

You will bust the ride if you can't do a single engine missed, period. You can tell the fed that you have delcared and your going straight out, and he is gonna say "great, then we will do it again and this time fly the missed". If you F it up, you bust. He has to see that you can control the A/C path both vertically and horizontally, you can do the missed approach procedure, and that you can clean up the A/C on schedule and at the proper altitudes. The FAA does not issue type ratings that say "approved for all operations except in mountainous areas, special airports, or airports without departure procedures that your not supposed to apply to the missed approach anyway."

 

[rgd]

BTW, jets don't have critical engines.

 

[AvroJockey]

BTW, jets don't have critical engines.

Actually, think there is technically a critical engine on even twin jets. An upwind engine failure is more critical than a downwind engine failure. Additionally, for jets with more than 2 engines, there is a critical engine. For example, the Avro/146 it's the outboard upwind engine.

FYI, usually Check Airmen/APDs will fail this engine in a V1 cut, so if you think there's going to be a V1 cut on TO, ask for a wind check.

 

[rgd]

I thought of the three engine and four engine after I posted, but so few fly these now days didn't bother posting it and if you have three or four engines, one failing is not as critical like a two engine.There is no critical on a two engine jet. I have never heard the upwind, downwind theory, but you can just turn the airplane and it goes from being upwind to downwind. This is not true with prop airplanes.

 

[AvroJockey]

I thought of the three engine and four engine after I posted, but so few fly these now days didn't bother posting it and if you have three or four engines, one failing is not as critical like a two engine.There is no critical on a two engine jet. I have never heard the upwind, downwind theory, but you can just turn the airplane and it goes from being upwind to downwind. This is not true with prop airplanes.

In many transport catagory jets there is significant amout of time between V1 and Vr, when your still on the ground. It's harder to maintain directional control during this period when the upwind engine fails, because not only do you have to correct for the engine failure with opposite rudder, but you also have to correct for crosswind with the same rudder input. This is not the case with a downwind engine failure, because the crosswind helps correct for the failed engine.

Your correct in saying that an engine failure in aircraft with more than two engines is not as critical. In the Avro, if the engine just spools down (ie. no fire or catistrophic failure) it is not considered an emergency, you may even elect to continue to your destination. Happened to a friend of mine on the Avro out if NW Arkansas Regional, they just secured it and went on thier merry way to Memphis.

 

[gump88]

Need help from experienced long term aviators that have been taking Captain check rides for many years in 121 jet service.


Missed Approach reads
"Climb to 1000' then climbing right turn to 5000' outbound via the MEM VOR R-323 to MREON INT/D18.0 and hold.

The above I just did in the sim.

I wanted to tun out at 700 agl which is 1000' MSL for ILS 36L in Memphis with a TDZE of 321'

For our profile this would be right after selecting the auto pilot on at 600 agl.

The instructor said the Missed Approach procedure is only for if the radios are out.

He said the "Climb to 1000' MSL then climbing LEFT turn is the minimum altitude to turn.

In the scenario above I would have turned at or above 1300 MSL which is just after selecting a climb on the Flight Director at VT speed aprox 170 kts.

1300 MSL is 1000 AGL which is our companies acceleration altitude.


I have been sitting here lookinga all over the regs the internet and the AIM to fin out if what the instructor said is correct that 1000 MSL is the minimum only for the turn and that I can turn a little later after the priority of taking care of the engine out profile.

Please help before my check ride.

Don't want to turn out late if its not legal.

This was the worst the instructor could find for me.

Right engine Failure

Right engine Fire

Autopilot Inop

FMS Inop



Thanks Really Apreciate the help




.

The missed procedure said turn RIGHT and you turned LEFT?? You bust!
Just my opinion, but in the above example, I would have continued the turn at V2 and 1/2 bank until I was established on the heading to intercept the radial. Then I would accelerate, clean it up, and continue with the QRH, all the while briefing my NFP of my intentions. Flying the missed exactly as published is your only guaranteed way of clearing obstacles and other aircraft. During an instrument approach, ATC only protects the missed area from other traffic. If you turn the wrong way, you could hit another plane as well as cumolusgranite.

g

 

[hmmm]

The missed procedure said turn RIGHT and you turned LEFT?? You bust!

Yes well it was a typo. Sorry I had been awake many hours trying to figure out where this fella came up with what he was having me do on that training ride.

And thanks for all the comments. With the info presented you fellas have confirmed my own thoughts and what I dug up in the TERPS
40 to 1 ratios and 200 ft per mile and as modified by terrain in that type of environment.

What I did on the actual checkride today wa fly exactly as published. And when we actually had an emergency situation I had the NFP ask for straight out due to the emergency. Of course I didn't get it and enjoyed knowing the option wasn't wanted by the check airman and could focus on the procedure at hand.

Yes Yes I feel and say the same way.

I don't know why the NFP Flight instructor didn't over-ride the actual instructor.

Good thing we always second guess something that doesn't sound right.

 

[minrest]

hmmm,

I'm having a difficult time understanding the nature of your "bust." You busted because you flew the wrong missed approach procedure or because you didn't take command of the aircraft? I've seen a lot of busts at my company (also a regional) for failure to command the aircraft. I know that our company's check-airmen are equally concerned with your ability to command as well as fly the aircraft. The check-airmen are especially concerned because this is usually the applicant's first attempt to gain a type rating in an air transport aircraft.

While I believe your examiner sounds like an a$$hole, he may have been concerned with you inability to take control of the aircraft. You state, "I don't know why the NFP Flight instructor didn't over-ride the actual instructor." Probably because it's not his job; it's the Captain's.

Good luck on the next go-around and don't get overconsumed with the bust. Just remember, the sim ride is reality and you are the PIC. Period.

-minrest.

 

[igneousy2]

hmmm,

I'm having a difficult time understanding the nature of your "bust." You busted because you flew the wrong missed approach procedure or because you didn't take command of the aircraft? I've seen a lot of busts at my company (also a regional) for failure to command the aircraft. I know that our company's check-airmen are equally concerned with your ability to command as well as fly the aircraft. The check-airmen are especially concerned because this is usually the applicant's first attempt to gain a type rating in an air transport aircraft.

While I believe your examiner sounds like an a$$hole, he may have been concerned with you inability to take control of the aircraft. You state, "I don't know why the NFP Flight instructor didn't over-ride the actual instructor." Probably because it's not his job; it's the Captain's.

Good luck on the next go-around and don't get overconsumed with the bust. Just remember, the sim ride is reality and you are the PIC. Period.

-minrest.

I think the original post was talking about his prep-ride before his checkride, which he passed, he subsequently took the checkride and apparently passed.

Congrats.

It is against the inspector manuals for them to give you compound failures, but what are you going to do. go to the local FSDO and complain? They'll just back-up their own guys, just like you would.

My last type ride I had a single engine, jammed elevator (no autopilot, no flaps), with the only approach available a circle off of a non-precision approach to a major U.S. airport with many approaches,

"Approach, declaring emergency, request ILS 4...sorry OTS...ILS 7...sorry OTS...how about vectors to ILS nearby airport..." Just as I let up my PTT the fuel-low warning light illuminated, 10 seconds before we had 3 hours of fuel left. I guess we had a fuel leak.

I passed the ride inspite of this so I got no complaints.

Later

 

[hmmm]

Yes I passed the type ride. Thanks. By the grace of God. And Gods name was__________.

And the next day, the NFP Instructor that was with me on the training event asked me if I turned out like the other instructor had shown me, and I said no and that I followed the published procedure as always before turning out immediately (as humanly possible) upon reaching the 1000 MSL left turn out which is aprox 700 on the radar altimeter in MEM for my heads up. ( We are already looking at the radar alt on initial climbout for Flight Director call outs here.) The NFP Instructor said good. He didn't say anything before since the other guy was above him and he was wondering if I had done it the way previously shown, what the check airmen thought about it. No chance of that. I'm not going to be a test pilot. And I definitely know now that I am not Chuck Yeager. Well I knew that before. Now I feel like a beat dog in a corner. Well not that bad.

The good thing in this is that now I know more about the obstacle clearance info in TERPS. That from the lowest MDA or DH the climbout protection up to the turn out altitude is based on a 40 to 1 ratio, that is from the lowest MDA or DH up to the turnout alt.

When designing a standard missed procedure they use the ratio 40:1. Every 40 feet out, clearance is 1 foot up plus a buffer percentage. This told and shown to me in the TERPS by an approach designer company engineer I found over the net. Using 200 foot per mile as we see listed in other areas of the regs gives even more buffer.

But remember, what I just said is from me, just another guy. I never thought so much of this before when I flew in heavy mountainous terrain before since as long as we had the performance for the runway and there were no alternate company procedures, the the aircraft was capable of making the climbout and turnout performance as long as you followed the procedure and climbed and turned exactly as published. Never heard anyone say you can turn later just because you know there are no obstacles in the surrounding the area to worry about, that is after noting your performance.

What I did do was on all approaches where we were already in an emergency situation was to have the NFP request a straight out missed just in case the check airman would take responsibility for radar obstacle clearance vectoring when checking in with the tower on approach.

Of course. "Denied"

Thanks for the help fellas.

 

[hmmm]

Since you can't edit past 10 min. If you didn't get it, the below underline is where you insert the Check Airmans name.

Yes I passed the type ride. Thanks. By the grace of God. And Gods name was "__________."

.

 

[SkywayFO]

Well I didn't read all the posts so if this was already said than I am sorry. First off I agree your instructor is a winner. Only one emerency at a time, unless it is self induced by screwing up the procedure. As far as your turn goes. First things first FLY THE PLANE. Get the thing under control and configured to get the hell away from the ground. Second say the magic words and do what you did as for straight ahead, in the real world they will give it to you unless you are in the mountains. As far aw turning late I think there is some leeway. The climb to statement is a minimum for the turn. But lets face it if you go way the hell out of the way he could get you for bad situational awareness. That is a judgment thing on his part. Which obvioulsly he lacks.

 

[Reddie]

.......

 

[yaks]

While it seems the issues have been resolved I will throw this out for discussions sake. The published missed approach is not a nordo procedure but rather a "without further guidance procedure". You should not plan on doing the MAP in the real world unless you have no other instructions. I guarantee you if you do it at a big airport like ORD or LGA you will get spanked. That said, you are talking apples and oranges here. The sim is the place to demonstrate proficiency and that is why you can expect to fly at least one published missed, more if the IP/EP feels like he needs to see more. You can expect a more cooperative controller after you have demonstrated your ability.