Riddle me this Batman

[Super 80]

Not speed. Time. In other words, how much time did that 75 mile journey by the balloon take? Nowhere in the clue does it state that the second airplane arrived at the balloon 45 minutes after passing the first plane.

Is this what they call mental mastrubation? If it is, is it supposed to hurt?

Last chance to help you conceptualize this.

The total time is 90 minutes, or 1.5 hours.

In the airmass, the first airplane flies out from a point (the balloon) for 45 minutes. This means some distance is covered. A second plane passes it going the same speed and travels the same distance back to the starting point in the airmass. So the second airplane takes 45 minutes to fly back to the starting point.

None of the three, the balloon, or the two airplanes are affected by the movement of the airmass over the ground. Each one of them relative to the other are in perfect symmetry. The balloon is stationary (in the airmass) and the two airplanes are on reciprocal headings at identical indicated speeds.

The ground track and ground speed are a totally different matter. That is controlled by movement of the airmass that all three are in. This is the measurement you get with points A and B on the ground as the stationary point moves over it.

With the distance being 75 nm and the total time being 1.5 hours you can now calculate the speed of the airmass or the windspeed at altitude.

 

[TonyC]

Last chance...

None of the three, the balloon, or the two airplanes are affected by the movement of the airmass over the ground.

If this property is fundamental to the solution of your riddle, then it must be so stated, since it is not a property of air in the nature in which we live.

The balloon is stationary (in the airmass) ...

This contradicts the first sentence of the riddle as you posed it:

Post which began this thread, originally posted by Super 80
An airplane releases a balloon that stays at that altitude over point A.

Either it remains over point A, as the first post SPECIFIED, or it moves perfectly with the airmass as your "solution" demands. It is improper for an unbiased observer, an honest scientist, to make such leaps of assumption.

 

[Super 80]

Re: Last chance...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Super 80
None of the three, the balloon, or the two airplanes are affected by the movement of the airmass over the ground.
--------------------------------------------------------------

If this property is fundamental to the solution of your riddle, then it must be so stated, since it is not a property of air in the nature in which we live.

No it is a principle of flying. The concept of airmass is the lesson here Tony. As a concept, a large block of air can be thought to move in unison. For a general locale, such as the runway environment, this is generally true. However we know this concept is rudimentary at best, but to show the difference between heading and airspeed versus ground track and ground speed it is a necessary component.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Super 80
The balloon is stationary (in the airmass) ...
--------------------------------------------------------------

This contradicts the first sentence of the riddle as you posed it:

Not really. A balloon has no lateral self-propulsion. If you ride in a hot air balloon, there is very little or no wind at all. The balloon is carried by the airmass current at that altitude in comparison to the ground.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Post which began this thread, originally posted by Super 80
An airplane releases a balloon that stays at that altitude over point A.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Either it remains over point A, as the first post SPECIFIED, or it moves perfectly with the airmass as your "solution" demands. It is improper for an unbiased observer, an honest scientist, to make such leaps of assumption.

The balloon stays at that altitude. It does not stay at that point.

The balloon is stationary relative to the airmass in which it is floating. The airmass is moving across the landscape, so the balloon is not stationary relative to the earth.

This was meant for fun, not to start an argument. A couple of people got it right, and ironically it was Enigma that answered the Batman riddle.

 

[TonyC]

Re: Re: Last chance...

No it is a principle of flying. The concept of airmass is the lesson here Tony. As a concept, a large block of air can be thought to move in unison. For a general locale, such as the runway environment, this is generally true. However we know this concept is rudimentary at best, but to show the difference between heading and airspeed versus ground track and ground speed it is a necessary component.

"principle..." "concept..." "generally true..." "concept is rudimentary at best..." you're making my point for me. It is not a property of our atmosphere, so we can NOT assume it to be true. It IS a "necessary component" of your riddle, so the assumption should have been stated.

It's kind of like the compressibility of air. Due to the incredible complexities of considering the compressibility of air in many aerodynamic calculations, we assume that air is incompressible when looking at most subsonic scenarios. The answers we get, then, are close, but lack a certain degree of accuracy owing to those assumptions. If we embark on solving problems, we must agree to certain assumptions, or make none. We can't just go about assuming anything that makes the math easier.

If you ride in a hot air balloon, there is very little or no wind at all. The balloon is carried by the airmass current at that altitude in comparison to the ground.

Again, you make the point for me. If the balloon moves at the exact velocity of the surrounding air, there can be NO wind -- not even "very little" -- relative to the passenger in the balloon. Such is not the case in our atmosphere. If motion of the balloon exactly matches the movement of the airmass in your riddle, that must be included in the assumptions.

This was meant for fun, not to start an argument. A couple of people got it right, and ironically it was Enigma that answered the Batman riddle.

Aww, come on. You can't seriously think that ANY question can be posed here without inciting an argument, do you? Enigma came up with YOUR answer because he made the assumptions you wanted him to make. The jury's still out on the RIGHT answer.

 

[bart]

'ow did you know 'e's a king?

'cause 'e 'asn't got sh_t all over 'im

and then there is watery tarts distributin' swords as a basis of government

 

[Timebuilder]

"we're an autonimous collective..."

gotta put that movie on my DVD list....

 

[enigma]

Re: Re: Re: Last chance...

Enigma came up with YOUR answer because he made the assumptions you wanted him to make. The jury's still out on the RIGHT answer.

I wrote, "Assuming that the airmass is completely uniform, that every molecule of air at that certain altitude moved the exact same distance and direction during the duration of the experiment,". It was, and is, an easy assumption to make. Here's why. Super 80 wrote, "(Air Force types and engineers will not get the solution, but the new guys getting their private license will.)
I was attempting to answer the question that Super80 posed by using all of the information he gave, and his hint about engineers was an important piece of information. That hint screemed that the solution was basic, conceptual, and not detail oriented. The concept of moving with the airmass is a concept that student pilots learn. He also wrote that the first airplane could be considered to take an "instant turn". That also, showed that this was not a real life scenarion, but a conceptual exercise.

So, to me, the answer was going to be one that was a basic concept.

If ya'll don't agree with the question, fine, I'm ok with that, I was just answering the question that was asked.

Like I said, I'm not an engineer.

regards,
enigma

 

[TonyC]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Last chance...

If ya'll don't agree with the question, fine, I'm ok with that, I was just answering the question that was asked.

No personal slight was intended.

Ya done good.

 

[Typhoon1244]

...gotta put that movie [Monty Python and the Holy Grail] on my DVD list...

Yeah...chicks dig that...

(On the other hand, I managed to find a loving wife despite the fact that I'm a Star Trek geek. Anything's possible.)

 

[knelson]

quote

Quoting GogglesPisano

"Is this what they call mental mastrubation? If it is, is it supposed to hurt?"

that may be one of the greatest lines I have ever heard.