Return of the SIC-logging question, with a twist.

[Tripower455]

So, I understand that a Part 91 C90 SIC CANNOT log the time as SIC/Turbine/Blah blah because there is no Ops Spec? Correct?

Under Part 91, the regs are all you have guiding you. If the aircraft certificate specifies single pilot, then you can't log SIC time, any moreso than you can in a 172. I believe that some aircraft can be either way (one of the smaller Citations, the "Munson Burner", IIRC, can be flown single pilot), but that might be a restriction on the type rating of the Capt. I am sure someone else will know.

FWIW, I went through this early on in my career. The first job I got was as a VFR (less than 1200 hours TT) Chieftan Capt. for a small airline/charter company on Long Island. Some of the casino charter contracts required 2 pilots, so I would sit right seat on those flights. I could not log SIC time on those legs, since the Op Specs didn't require an SIC for that plane. We would swap seats, and I was able to log PIC time on the VFR legs. We both got paid anyway, so it wasn't that big a deal.

Good luck!

 

[Snakum]

About now I'm wondering how it would look if I logged C90 PIC (empty legs, flying sole manipulator) with only 500 hours TT (which was the TT of the one person I know who was hired as a C90FO part 91).

I'm think'n ... that won't look too spiffy.



Minh

 

[Kingairrick]

About now I'm wondering how it would look if I logged C90 PIC (empty legs, flying sole manipulator) with only 500 hours TT

I definately would. Here's why: How else are you going to build flight time for your ATP? I would log all the time you spend as sole manipulator as PIC as per the letter of the regs. In other words, log the dead legs in th 90 if you fly them. Some airlines might say that you were not "responsible" for the aircraft, or didn't "sign" for it, but the regs don't make that distinction, and neither should you. If you are lucky enough to be hired into the right seat, and you probably will be, you will be the next guy in line for the left seat. However, you have to meet minimum flight time standards for that seat, so log the time that is legal.

This is my opinion, but in this case, I'm basing it upon whom I would hire into my next left seat opening. It will definately be the right seat in that airplane. However, that person will have to meet minimums, like say, an ATP. For an ATP, or any rating, the regs for logging flight time are all that matters, not who "signed" for the airplane.

Bottom line: If you are rated in the airplane, and are sole manipulator, log the PIC.

 

[Timebuilder]

About now I'm wondering how it would look if I logged C90 PIC (empty legs, flying sole manipulator) with only 500 hours TT (which was the TT of the one person I know who was hired as a C90FO part 91).

I'm think'n ... that won't look too spiffy.



Minh

The above observation suggests to me that you may want to track your part 61 sole manipulator time in a separate column than the PIC time that you have as the "responsible" person flying the mighty C 172. Certainly, learn all that you can about the C90, all of the systems and limitations, so that when you have to answer for the logging of part 91/61 sole manipulator PIC time, you can back it up with the appropriate level of knowlege about the airplane. No ops specs or regs that allow for an SIC in the airplane? No SIC time, then. Make the most of the PIC opportunities that can legally be logged, and know the aircraft cold for your own good now and in the future.

 

[mike1mc]

About now I'm wondering how it would look if I logged C90 PIC (empty legs, flying sole manipulator) with only 500 hours TT (which was the TT of the one person I know who was hired as a C90FO part 91).

I'm think'n ... that won't look too spiffy.



Minh

I'm doing it with not much more than 400TT. I've been to SimuFlite, have the documentation, and fly 135 legs from the right seat. If I am the Pilot Flying its logged as PIC, if I'm not, then SIC. I usually fly all 91 legs as well. Just be sure you can prove you "know" the aircraft (i.e. systems, airspeeds, limitations, etc).

 

[Kingairrick]

I'm doing it with not much more than 400TT. I've been to SimuFlite, have the documentation, and fly 135 legs from the right seat. If I am the Pilot Flying its logged as PIC, if I'm not, then SIC. I usually fly all 91 legs as well. Just be sure you can prove you "know" the aircraft (i.e. systems, airspeeds, limitations, etc).

How are you getting around the 1200 min tt for IFR 135 to act as PIC? Do you have a 8410 as PIC? If you don't then that is definately not legal.

 

[avbug]

Snakum,

Log the Part 91 legs when you fly them, if you're checked out in the airplane and the company has authorized you PIC privileges.

Don't log PIC under 135 when you're not a designated PIC, but you may certainly do so under Part 91 without much to worry about. I'd question anybody that questions the propriety of doing so. You're fully justified to log that time.

 

[mike1mc]

How are you getting around the 1200 min tt for IFR 135 to act as PIC? Do you have a 8410 as PIC? If you don't then that is definately not legal.

There is PIC "Captain" time and also "Sole Manipulator of the Controls" PIC time. This goes back to the flight instructor and student both logging PIC flight time. This wouldn't work in an aircraft that required a type rating if I had no type, but I am qualified and current in the aircraft (King Air). If am I incorrect, then please inform me otherwise (not looking to be flamebait). This is what I have been told by other captains.

 

[Kingairrick]

FAR 61.51:

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person—

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

from FAR 135.243

(c) Except as provided in paragraph (a) of this section, no certificate holder may use a person, nor may any person serve, as pilot in command of an aircraft under IFR unless that person—

(1) Holds at least a commercial pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and, if required, an appropriate type rating for that aircraft; and

(2) Has had at least 1,200 hours of flight time as a pilot, including 500 hours of cross country flight time, 100 hours of night flight time, and 75 hours of actual or simulated instrument time at least 50 hours of which were in actual flight; and

(3) For an airplane, holds an instrument rating or an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category rating; or

(4) For a helicopter, holds a helicopter instrument rating, or an airline transport pilot certificate with a category and class rating for that aircraft, not limited to VFR.

I hate it that you guys made me quote the FARs. I swear I'll hire you anyway.