Results of Eagle Flight 5401 Accident Investigation
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ultrarunner
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LearLove said:
Yep, that's what they are saying.
hotwings402
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How did they find out he was taking meds? Did he volunteer it after the accident? Geez.
NYCPilot
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hotwings402 said:
Dude, they take a urine and blood test after ANY accident to see whether you are under the influence of any drugs or alcohol. Very unlikely he would volunteer such information. It's a very powerful sedative, and should not be taken while flying.
Depending on the medications half-life, it can be detected for several days after being taken. It does not necessarily have to have been taken that day either. For those of you wondering, all medications have published half-lives. For instance, if a drugs half-life is say, 12 hours, then after 12 hours of ingesting the medicine, half of it is excreted from the body. 12 hours later of of the remaining is excreted, and so on. As you can see, the more days that go by, less and less is removed.
Take 20mgs.
12 hrs./10mgs.
24 hrs./5mgs.
36 hrs./2.5mgs. remains in system...
FYI, I used to work in a mom & pop pharmacy part-time while in school. Learned a lot and actually got to fill prescriptions....
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hotwings402
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Thats true, I'm sure theres alot of guys on this board that have had anxiety at some point or even depression but please guys don't take this stuff while flying, its probably worse than drinking and flying.
NYCPilot
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hotwings402 said:
I agree.
Mmeds. are just a crutch. Don't solve anything except band-aid the problem. You need to find out whats causing these things.
One post mentioned that it was his first day off IOE and with a difficult captain. I can see why he may have wanted some chillout pills!
I noticed from the video the CA told the FO that they were gonna balloon, yet they were still pretty far out from the threshold and 1,000 marker. He also told him not to pull back or flare, I guess so that it would prevent against any ballooning. But at the speed they were at, I think if he began his flare they might have floated a little bit, not balloon. I don't think it they were set up to balloon at the speed, height and distance from where it was called out.
Terry Hunter
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T-prop said:
Now that sounds like fun - would that involve some practice in the sim? ;-)
Singlecoil
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Here is another reason why you don't take drugs and fly. People die.
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20010816X01703&key=1
The toxicological examination revealed that 0.049 ug/ml of codeine, in conjunction with 1.658 ug/ml of morphine, was detected in the pilot's urine. Morphine is an inactive metabolite of codeine. No codeine or morphine was detected in the pilot's blood. Codeine is a narcotic painkiller, used for control of moderate to severe pain. Codeine is found in various prescription painkillers, as well as in some over-the-counter cough suppressants.
Additionally, the toxicological examination revealed that 0.355 ug/ml of paroxetine was detected in the pilot's blood, and unspecified levels of paroxetine were detected in liver tissue and urine samples. Paroxetine (trade name Paxil) is a prescription antidepressant medication commonly prescribed to patients suffering from social anxiety disorders, and panic attacks.
During a telephone conversation with the National Transportation Safety Board investigator-in-charge on January 3, 2002, the pilot's personal physician reported that he had prescribed the accident pilot's prescription for Paxil, but had not prescribed any medication that contained codeine. The physician added that he first started treating the accident pilot on May 9, 2001, after the pilot complained of ongoing chest and throat tightness. According to his physician, the pilot explained to him that he had a longstanding history of anxiety that was previously treated with other anxiety medication. The pilot told the physician that he had to discontinue use of the medication since he was a pilot.
The NTSB medical officer reviewed the medical records obtained from the accident pilot's physician, and extracted, in part, the following information.
May 9, 2001, the physician wrote in the pilot's medical records, in part: "26-year-old male comes in today for "years" of ongoing chest and throat tightness. ... He says it often comes on when there is bad weather and he has to fly, or when he has to give his briefing talk to several people." The medical records note that the pilot was scheduled for an Upper GI Series, to be conducted within the next two weeks. Additionally, the physician prescribed 10 mg of Paxil to be taken once per day, and provided the pilot with a one-month supply of Paxil sample packages.
On May 23, the accident pilot underwent an Upper GI Series examination. According the physician's notes, the examinations findings were, in part: "There is moderate large distal sliding hiatal hernia with minor gastroesophageal reflux." Additionally, the physician writes: "...He [the pilot] also says he feels slightly better on Paxil 10 mg, so tomorrow he is starting 20 mg per day. He says he'll phone when he needs more meds."
On June 19, the accident pilot visited the physician for a follow-up appointment. The physician's notes state: "... comes in with progress report on his Paxil trial... He notices that he has less anxiety while flying his plane and less subjective shortness of breath while speaking to people in the airplane. It was getting to be enough of a bother that he was real unhappy with his job. Now he says that's being reversed. ...He complained of a little grogginess upon waking in the morning, but feels that it clears rapidly and is not present at the time of his going to work. ... will increase the Paxil from 20 mg to 30 mg a day. Told him again to expect a subtle increase in his early morning grogginess. He understands that he's not to work if he feels that this is impairing him at all. I also was clear that his records would have to be surrendered if an employer requested them. He agrees and understands. He'll increase to 30 mg for next three weeks and see if he feels in optimal control of anxiety. If not, he'll increase to 40 mg and notify me - samples given today for about 6 weeks."
On July 25, five days before the accident, the pilot's physician made the following entry in the pilot's medical records: "By the way - Request for refill of samples today. Feels 30 mg is good dose of Paxil..."
The FAA's 1999 Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners states, in part: "The use of a psychotropic drug is considered disqualifying. This includes all sedatives, tranquilizers, antipsychotic drugs, antidepressant drugs , analeptics, anxiolytics, and hallucinogens." The drug Paroxetine (Paxil) is considered a mood-ameliorating drug and requires a review by the FAA's medical certification division before being used by pilots. The prescribing physician was not an FAA certified medical examiner.
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20010816X01703&key=1
The toxicological examination revealed that 0.049 ug/ml of codeine, in conjunction with 1.658 ug/ml of morphine, was detected in the pilot's urine. Morphine is an inactive metabolite of codeine. No codeine or morphine was detected in the pilot's blood. Codeine is a narcotic painkiller, used for control of moderate to severe pain. Codeine is found in various prescription painkillers, as well as in some over-the-counter cough suppressants.
Additionally, the toxicological examination revealed that 0.355 ug/ml of paroxetine was detected in the pilot's blood, and unspecified levels of paroxetine were detected in liver tissue and urine samples. Paroxetine (trade name Paxil) is a prescription antidepressant medication commonly prescribed to patients suffering from social anxiety disorders, and panic attacks.
During a telephone conversation with the National Transportation Safety Board investigator-in-charge on January 3, 2002, the pilot's personal physician reported that he had prescribed the accident pilot's prescription for Paxil, but had not prescribed any medication that contained codeine. The physician added that he first started treating the accident pilot on May 9, 2001, after the pilot complained of ongoing chest and throat tightness. According to his physician, the pilot explained to him that he had a longstanding history of anxiety that was previously treated with other anxiety medication. The pilot told the physician that he had to discontinue use of the medication since he was a pilot.
The NTSB medical officer reviewed the medical records obtained from the accident pilot's physician, and extracted, in part, the following information.
May 9, 2001, the physician wrote in the pilot's medical records, in part: "26-year-old male comes in today for "years" of ongoing chest and throat tightness. ... He says it often comes on when there is bad weather and he has to fly, or when he has to give his briefing talk to several people." The medical records note that the pilot was scheduled for an Upper GI Series, to be conducted within the next two weeks. Additionally, the physician prescribed 10 mg of Paxil to be taken once per day, and provided the pilot with a one-month supply of Paxil sample packages.
On May 23, the accident pilot underwent an Upper GI Series examination. According the physician's notes, the examinations findings were, in part: "There is moderate large distal sliding hiatal hernia with minor gastroesophageal reflux." Additionally, the physician writes: "...He [the pilot] also says he feels slightly better on Paxil 10 mg, so tomorrow he is starting 20 mg per day. He says he'll phone when he needs more meds."
On June 19, the accident pilot visited the physician for a follow-up appointment. The physician's notes state: "... comes in with progress report on his Paxil trial... He notices that he has less anxiety while flying his plane and less subjective shortness of breath while speaking to people in the airplane. It was getting to be enough of a bother that he was real unhappy with his job. Now he says that's being reversed. ...He complained of a little grogginess upon waking in the morning, but feels that it clears rapidly and is not present at the time of his going to work. ... will increase the Paxil from 20 mg to 30 mg a day. Told him again to expect a subtle increase in his early morning grogginess. He understands that he's not to work if he feels that this is impairing him at all. I also was clear that his records would have to be surrendered if an employer requested them. He agrees and understands. He'll increase to 30 mg for next three weeks and see if he feels in optimal control of anxiety. If not, he'll increase to 40 mg and notify me - samples given today for about 6 weeks."
On July 25, five days before the accident, the pilot's physician made the following entry in the pilot's medical records: "By the way - Request for refill of samples today. Feels 30 mg is good dose of Paxil..."
The FAA's 1999 Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners states, in part: "The use of a psychotropic drug is considered disqualifying. This includes all sedatives, tranquilizers, antipsychotic drugs, antidepressant drugs , analeptics, anxiolytics, and hallucinogens." The drug Paroxetine (Paxil) is considered a mood-ameliorating drug and requires a review by the FAA's medical certification division before being used by pilots. The prescribing physician was not an FAA certified medical examiner.
NYCPilot
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Pa32-300 Accident, not ATR.
This post is in reference to the preceding one, in regards to the sight seeing pilot of a Pa32-300, NOT the ATR.
Medications also increase your susceptibility to histotoxic hypoxia. This is a condition where your tissue cells are unable to utilize the oxygen being transported through your blood for cellular uptake. Bascially, even at a relatively low altitude, someone who smokes an/or takes unapproved medications will experience hypoxia at lower altitudes. This may be well below the 12,500' threshold or the more pracitcal figure of 10,000.
Personally, he may either not have been psychologically suited to pilot a plane or he should have tried to deal with these feelings he was having through therapy. The article states that weather and flying along with the briefing casued him anxiety. This could have been treated in other ways. Maybe he wasn't confident in his IFR skills or the aircraft he was flying. Perhaps more time with a more experienced mentor in IMC could have helped. A course on public speaking or just reading and practicing your speaking skills might have helped too. Sometimes exercises in public speaking can alleviate this fear and may actually make you more relaxed overall.
This post is in reference to the preceding one, in regards to the sight seeing pilot of a Pa32-300, NOT the ATR.
Medications also increase your susceptibility to histotoxic hypoxia. This is a condition where your tissue cells are unable to utilize the oxygen being transported through your blood for cellular uptake. Bascially, even at a relatively low altitude, someone who smokes an/or takes unapproved medications will experience hypoxia at lower altitudes. This may be well below the 12,500' threshold or the more pracitcal figure of 10,000.
Personally, he may either not have been psychologically suited to pilot a plane or he should have tried to deal with these feelings he was having through therapy. The article states that weather and flying along with the briefing casued him anxiety. This could have been treated in other ways. Maybe he wasn't confident in his IFR skills or the aircraft he was flying. Perhaps more time with a more experienced mentor in IMC could have helped. A course on public speaking or just reading and practicing your speaking skills might have helped too. Sometimes exercises in public speaking can alleviate this fear and may actually make you more relaxed overall.
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NYCPilot
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This could have easily happened to a healthy pilot who had a good nights sleep and was not under the influence of any substances.
What we have here is an inexperienced pilot who just got off IOE and flew with a CA who may have been intimidating him the entire trip, making him feel inadequate and inferior. In other words making him feel uncomfortable. It is not surprising that his skills may have deteriorated a little and he botched the landing. In my experience, the more cofnident you are about your skills, the better you will fly, or do anything in life for that matter. When someone tries to lower your self esteem or confidence, it will have an effect on your performance.
I think that if he just let the FO finsih the landing, all would be fine. The exchange of controls and the attempt to salavage the landing rather than lose face, cost the captain an accident.
Personally, I think it is the CA's fault. This was a botched recovery at a minimum. The FO should have completed the landing or they should have gone around. Period.
What we have here is an inexperienced pilot who just got off IOE and flew with a CA who may have been intimidating him the entire trip, making him feel inadequate and inferior. In other words making him feel uncomfortable. It is not surprising that his skills may have deteriorated a little and he botched the landing. In my experience, the more cofnident you are about your skills, the better you will fly, or do anything in life for that matter. When someone tries to lower your self esteem or confidence, it will have an effect on your performance.
I think that if he just let the FO finsih the landing, all would be fine. The exchange of controls and the attempt to salavage the landing rather than lose face, cost the captain an accident.
Personally, I think it is the CA's fault. This was a botched recovery at a minimum. The FO should have completed the landing or they should have gone around. Period.
Aerosurfer
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I was in training with the FO last year. It was tragic to say the least, The Captain, while I (fortunately) never got to fly with, definately had a bit of a Rep as being a real jerk. As for the FO it was his second leg off of IOE. The ATR72 is a lot of plane to jump into from Barrons and Cirrus. Heavy Controlls and a lawndart if you pull the powers all the way out. It also lands very flat, even unnatrally so if comparing to most GA planes, which the FO was coming out of.
The WX conditions were worse than the Report stated as well, with the winds the FO should not have been landing in the first place- Per GOM for green pilots.
The pics that were floating around the SJU crew room of the plane were very sobering and looked a lot worse than the injuries were. The CA broke Back/vertibrae from the seat failure. The Center pedestal was in 3 pieces and the over head panel was damaged greatly. The FO had a large gash on his forehead (never asked but probablly from no shoulder harnesses). Outside the last 10 feet of the Left wing was impaled into the ground and the left engine was hanging straight down, Left main was gone, Nosegear was gone and the aluminum under the nosegear and cockpit was wrinkled and crushed.
I heard conflicting reports of the drug usage, as far as weather he was taking it at or near the time of the accident, others were that he volunteed the info and the FAA and AMR came down on him for lying on a medical application and therefore lying on his job application, but it was from years prior. Like I said Not sure of the facts on that one other than what was in the Report.
He was a good guy, not particularly thrilled about being in SJU, but still had everyhing that could go wrong did all at once.
Makes us all realise how demanding and specialized our training and job requirement is. Not if only we were paid accordingly (oops that another thread)
Yo ALABAMMAN..........what he up to nowadays? We got a few drunk dials from him a few months back, but that was all, heard was back at his old school ground instructing. He loved that song....
Wild Wacky Action Bike........Can't Ride It; Can't Ride It
The WX conditions were worse than the Report stated as well, with the winds the FO should not have been landing in the first place- Per GOM for green pilots.
The pics that were floating around the SJU crew room of the plane were very sobering and looked a lot worse than the injuries were. The CA broke Back/vertibrae from the seat failure. The Center pedestal was in 3 pieces and the over head panel was damaged greatly. The FO had a large gash on his forehead (never asked but probablly from no shoulder harnesses). Outside the last 10 feet of the Left wing was impaled into the ground and the left engine was hanging straight down, Left main was gone, Nosegear was gone and the aluminum under the nosegear and cockpit was wrinkled and crushed.
I heard conflicting reports of the drug usage, as far as weather he was taking it at or near the time of the accident, others were that he volunteed the info and the FAA and AMR came down on him for lying on a medical application and therefore lying on his job application, but it was from years prior. Like I said Not sure of the facts on that one other than what was in the Report.
He was a good guy, not particularly thrilled about being in SJU, but still had everyhing that could go wrong did all at once.
Makes us all realise how demanding and specialized our training and job requirement is. Not if only we were paid accordingly (oops that another thread)
Yo ALABAMMAN..........what he up to nowadays? We got a few drunk dials from him a few months back, but that was all, heard was back at his old school ground instructing. He loved that song....
Wild Wacky Action Bike........Can't Ride It; Can't Ride It
AlabamaMan!!
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He's back at the flight school; He keeps all the CFI's in check and does advanced stage checks, etc.
I feel really bad for the guy. He's a great guy and was a good friend. He doesnt really like to hang out much with anyone anymore ; Turns out it wasn't his fault but had a "skeleton in the closet". Not sure exactly where he is in getting his medical back, or if he even has to take a 709 ride now that it was found the captain to be at fault.
Whats gonna happen with the Capt.? I also heard from a couple Beagle guys that he was a real c0ck when in charge. Guess that finally bit him in the a$$. Goes to show you how being "professional" can have a big outcome in the successful completion of a flight.
I use this unfortunate accident as a reminder not to let my guard down, and that anything could happen to anyone on any day, regardless of experience.
The bike thats hard to ride!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I feel really bad for the guy. He's a great guy and was a good friend. He doesnt really like to hang out much with anyone anymore ; Turns out it wasn't his fault but had a "skeleton in the closet". Not sure exactly where he is in getting his medical back, or if he even has to take a 709 ride now that it was found the captain to be at fault.
Whats gonna happen with the Capt.? I also heard from a couple Beagle guys that he was a real c0ck when in charge. Guess that finally bit him in the a$$. Goes to show you how being "professional" can have a big outcome in the successful completion of a flight.
I use this unfortunate accident as a reminder not to let my guard down, and that anything could happen to anyone on any day, regardless of experience.
The bike thats hard to ride!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Singlecoil
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F/O said:
Ding!
Inconceivable
huh
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I always hated AMR's AAstronaut physical, thinking it as unnecessary and intrusive.
Now it looks like there is something to it (had they actually screened the guy out--since they didn't, does that make me right, after all?)
Now it looks like there is something to it (had they actually screened the guy out--since they didn't, does that make me right, after all?)
While I was at Eagle I always heard about the ATR 72 not liking the power off. I've never flown the ATR but I would guess that if your wheels are on the ground it is okay to take the power off. I would also bet money that although the FO screwed the approach...he probably would have made a better recovery as he was also a more recent CFI. CFI's are usually pretty good at saving bounced landings.
later
later
AlabamaMan!!
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Ive also never flown an ATR, but it didnt really look like the approach was screwed. Flat landing, yeah. Its been my experience that adding some back pressure usually helps, regardless of how flat you need to land an airplane. Does anyone really fly an airplane that requires no back pressure (transport cat.) when about to touchdown? It may not have been a greaser...but had the capt. let the F/O figure it out and given him clear instructions....they both may have jobs right now.
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