Results of ARC rewrite for Flight and Duty (135)

[pilotyip]

Worth?

hammer, we? Are you putting you and me in the same group? That could never happen I am happy you appear not to me. I have lived fantastic life and have done most of things I have wanted to, things you will never even dream of. You seem to think my ideas and my life would not live up to your standards, therefore I must be degraded in public. My view of this career is based upon the realities I have witnessed in my life. So using we, is probably not the correct term. BTW I have never posted what I think you are worth, only the reality of pilot compensation. 100K is in the upper 15% of individual income in the US. I have never seen it, so I think it is good money.

 

[hammer2]

Yes WE ! We both are professional pilots! It appears we both have different standards. I also think your not telling the whole story. It seems you are double dipping on your income, ie mil retirement. which means you are not counting just on your flying job to survive. You also mentioned your rank in a pm which means its not a bad retirement.
The original subject is companies tend to treat and work pilots like they are migrant workers. Pilots like you tend to be the company lap dog making life hard for the rest of us.
You talk about reality...your career stopped being a reality when you didn't need it to feed your family!

 

[pilotyip]

We I feel included life is good. isn't it?

 

[hammer2]

Yes it is.

 

[FlyingMoose]

Personally I think the rule is just fine the way it is. You can't legislate good judgement, just becuase you give someone a "perscribed" rest period doesn't mean they will rest. I know a few guys that will get home from a trip at 7-8am and stay up all day simply because it's "normal" to be awake during the day. Then they may get a trip later that night and be tired. They meet the rest requirement rule, but due to their own stupidity they will still be flying tired. If you ask me the decresion should be left up to the pilot, like it is now. If I'm tired, I don't go. I've only had to use this once before a trip and I didn't catch any flack for it. They also never have a problem with me stopping for a nap if I need one. I also don't think being on call is being on duty. I'm on call right now and I'm not doing ANYTHING work related, I'm sitting around my house, puttsing around on my computer and later I'll probably go to the store, and just carry out my life normally. I'm not working, if they call me for a trip I'll go in and once I'm at the airport, then I'm working. But by no means is being on call work. IMO anyone that thinks being on call is work needs to get a real job for awhile so they can see what work really is.

Also if I want to fly home after my trip that is and should still be my discression. I don't like being on the road all the time and from what I've heard so far is that the new rule would eliminate 91 home. So basically if I fly for 8 hrs and end up in some place like Gwinner North Dakota, that's where would have to stay. I don't agree with that at all, if I'm not tired, I'm coming home. I know my limits better than the FAA does, everyone has different tolerances, so why put out a blanket rule limiting and possibly making things worse.

The only part of the rule I would like to see changed is to put a maximum on the delay allowed, say a 4 hr max delay.

I couldn't agree with you more on the point that you can't legislate good judgement, which is exactly why there is and has to be rules and regulations determined and enforced. That is the underlying point for safety regulations in any industry. In all of these regulation discussions regarding rest it rarely gets mentioned that the first and foremost obligation (by regulation) is for any crewmember to determine his airworthiness. Lot's of crews and companies seem to forget that regulated point. Just because the rest and duty time regulations are met for any given assignment does not at all mean a pilot is legal to fly in regards to fatigue.

I don't quite understand your direction, if I read your post correctly you think that the matter of rest and fatigue should be at the discretion of the pilot. I interpret that as to say that you feel there should be no mandated rules regarding required rest. But, you seem to recognize that some pilots don't use or have good judgment....

I also don't understand your coment on a maximum or limit on delay. If you feel that all operations should be predicated on the pilot determining his on limits and tolerances then you wouldn't need any regulations regarding delays and duty days.

I couldn't disagree with you on your on-call philosophy more. You're exactly right, when you are on-call you are not on duty. No one in this thread has suggested you are. But you are most definitely not in a qualified rest period as defined by the regulations. Maybe at any given time you are not doing any work, but you are obligated to your employer to work so you certainly are not off or free to do anything. I guess everyone will define "carrying out there life normally" differently, but being on-call is not my normal life and you certainly are under any number of restraints (distance/time to airport, no drinking, for example). I like going on long motorcycle rides, frequent mountain-biking locations, boating, all kinds of activities that would not fit into the parameters of most on-call situations. I live just twelve miles from my base, but traffic in my metro area would make that a minimum of a 45 minute drive basically any time of day. So in my situation I have about 10 minutes to be leaving my house professionally presentable in uniform. In other words, I would basically have to sit in a chair showered and shaved waiting for a call.

But back to the point. There has to be some basic minimum rest requirements and regulations. Absolutely a pilot is required to determine his fatigue level as the first and foremost factor, but that can not be the only consideration, IMHO. If everyone involved (pilots, operators, POI's) would follow the current regulations properly we'd be a lot better off. If a rewrite will help more people comprehend the regulations and increase the compliance than I'm all for it.

In the meantime, go get a 91 job, there are plenty of owners and companies out there that will be happy to keep you on-call 24 hours a day and you can fly as long as you determine your safe.... and its all "legal-like"!

 

[hammer2]

A 14hr day is to long!! write that into thwe new rules.

 

[pilotyip]

But 121 is a 16 hour duty day with two pilots, 18 with 3 pilots and 20 with 4 pilots

 

[FlyinFife]

Duty Day, Flight Time, Bleh it all sucks

Ok, a few of you mentioned extra rest time required if the "14 hour duty day" is over-run for "unexpected" circumstances. As I read 135.267, no where is there any mention of being able to go over a 14 hour duty day. You only get extra rest if you have "exceeded the daily flight time limitations...beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember". So where is the idea coming from that you can exceed a 14 hour duty day?

As I understand, the duty day limitation is a hard time that can't be exceeded. So if the pax show up late enough that you're going to exceed your duty time, then you cannot fly the pax home. Is this a correct assesment?

 

[G100driver]

But 121 is a 16 hour duty day with two pilots, 18 with 3 pilots and 20 with 4 pilots

However, you never see that in the Majors, as they fly with augemented crews for any day over 10 hours. It seems that ALPA is good for something, if not the safety of the flying public.

 

[pilotyip]

flyinfife go back to the begining, legal to start legal to finish.

 

[Seadogrun]

Ok, a few of you mentioned extra rest time required if the "14 hour duty day" is over-run for "unexpected" circumstances. As I read 135.267, no where is there any mention of being able to go over a 14 hour duty day. You only get extra rest if you have "exceeded the daily flight time limitations...beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember". So where is the idea coming from that you can exceed a 14 hour duty day?

As I understand, the duty day limitation is a hard time that can't be exceeded. So if the pax show up late enough that you're going to exceed your duty time, then you cannot fly the pax home. Is this a correct assesment?

That is how I understood it.

 

[hammer2]

No penalty if you go over duty time. If you go over flight time then you get extra rest.

 

[Seadogrun]

No penalty if you go over duty time. If you go over flight time then you get extra rest.

No penalty? Except for a violation of a regulation.

 

[pilotyip]

going over duty time, if it was not planned to go over is not a violation of the regs

 

[mdanno808]

So...According to the Fed's, is reserve duty, rest, neither.....? If you are on call from 12 am to 12 am, is it legal?

 

[pilotyip]

The way it is

The way the Feds look at it right now, is rest time, you can not be contacted, except once near the beginning or end of rest, and during rest the company can not assign you any duty. There is a non-duty non-rest period, this is after you have completed your required rest period, but do not have any assigned duties by the company, and the last is duty where you are doing something requested by the company, fly, travel, ground school, etc. Duty has limitations before you have to go back into rest; non-duty non-rest has no limits. You may find many that disagree with this, but this is the way the industry works right now and the Feds approve of it.

 

[Seadogrun]

going over duty time, if it was not planned to go over is not a violation of the regs

Right, as in you get put in a hold for 1/2 hr which causes you to go beyond your 14hrs, however you may not take off knowing you will not be able to complete the flight within your duty day. ie late pax or cargo.

 

[pilotyip]

Seado, Sounds like you are confusing 121 with 135. That is not the correct interpretation of the regs.

 

[Seadogrun]

Yip, I'm the first to admit that I'm not current on 135 regs so I very well may be wrong, but let me ask a logical question.

What would be the purpose of the 14 hour rule if it can't be enforced (violated)? Are we all the sudden on the honor system?

I am now forced to break into Part 135 and read it to satisfy my curiosity.

 

[Seadogrun]

§ 135.267 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: Unscheduled one- and two-pilot crews.

top
(a) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember, and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment, for flight time as a member of a one- or two-pilot crew if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—
(1) 500 hours in any calendar quarter.
(2) 800 hours in any two consecutive calendar quarters.
(3) 1,400 hours in any calendar year.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed—
(1) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or
(2) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots qualified under this part for the operation being conducted.
(c) A flight crewmember's flight time may exceed the flight time limits of paragraph (b) of this section if the assigned flight time occurs during a regularly assigned duty period of no more than 14 hours and—
(1) If this duty period is immediately preceded by and followed by a required rest period of at least 10 consecutive hours of rest;
(2) If flight time is assigned during this period, that total flight time when added to any other commercial flying by the flight crewmember may not exceed—
(i) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or
(ii) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots; and
(3) If the combined duty and rest periods equal 24 hours.
(d) Each assignment under paragraph (b) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment.
(e) When a flight crewmember has exceeded the daily flight time limitations in this section, because of circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as adverse weather conditions), that flight crewmember must have a rest period before being assigned or accepting an assignment for flight time of at least—
(1) 11 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by not more than 30 minutes;
(2) 12 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by more than 30 minutes, but not more than 60 minutes; and
(3) 16 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by more than 60 minutes.
(f) The certificate holder must provide each flight crewmember at least 13 rest periods of at least 24 consecutive hours each in each calendar quarter.
[Doc. No. 23634, 50 FR 29320, July 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 135–33, 54 FR 39294, Sept. 25, 1989; Amdt. 135–60, 61 FR 2616, Jan. 26, 1996]

This is all(without spending hours on end) I really found concerning extention of flight time. I didn't find anything that allowed extention of the duty day. In bold type it clearly states that any extention of flight time must be done withing the 14 hour duty day.

 

[pilotyip]

assigned is the word that allows legal to start, legal to finish. In Part 121 is is limiting and you are not allowed to fly over 16 hours, except on the last leg. And then only if it was planned to be completed within 16 hours and enroute delays forced the duty over 16 hours.

 

[Seadogrun]

It says: occurs during a regularly assigned duty period of no more than 14 hours and—


Occurs during the regularly assigned duty period of no more that 14 hours. It does not say before or after the normally assigned duty period.

I don't see the logic in your interpretation.

Are you of the opinion that if a cert. holder can assign a 14 hr duty day, but the pilot can fly as long as he/she wants because the duty day is only assigned?

 

[400pilot]

135.267(c) does not apply to most 135 operators. A regular assigned duty period of 14 hours would be, for example, a case where the duty starts every day at 8am and goes to 10pm. A lot of the helicopter pilots who fly workers out to oil rigs fall under this, but most on-demand charter outfits do not.

If you are curious about 135.267(c), there are a couple legal interps on the FAA website to look at.

 

[Seadogrun]

135.267(c) does not apply to most 135 operators. A regular assigned duty period of 14 hours would be, for example, a case where the duty starts every day at 8am and goes to 10pm. A lot of the helicopter pilots who fly workers out to oil rigs fall under this, but most on-demand charter outfits do not.

If you are curious about 135.267(c), there are a couple legal interps on the FAA website to look at.

Once again, I don't get it. Here's what the reg says:

(c) Sections 135.267 and 135.269 apply to any operation that is not a scheduled passenger-carrying operation and to any operation conducted solely within the State of Alaska, unless the operator elects to comply with §135.265 as authorized under paragraph (b)(2) of this section.

 

[pilotyip]

assigned trip can not be more than 14 hrs duty. For example you are assigned a trip from YIP-ATL-LRD-MMTO, supposed to be completed, using flight times and reasonable ground times is 12 hours. However a departure delay at ATL causes you to be 3 hours late coming out of ATL, you are still good for the trip. And if you want a tail end ferry back to LRD is 100% legal. All in all a 18 hr day. Good to go coach send me in.

 

[belchfire]

Aviation Rulemaking Comittee: Joint effort between industry and the FAA

Ah, well there's an oxymoron...industry vs. government-representation getting squished in the middle!

The problem with fatigue is that it affects judgement first. Someone that was well rested might very well say "frack that tail end ferry, get me a hotel room and I'll call you in 12 hours" whereas a worn out crew, tired from the previous days work, longing to see some sunshine for a change will accept it.

The Feds have statistics that are (while I am no real fan of statistical "evidence") are quite clear. The rate of incidents and accidents are substantially higher in the first hour and a half or duty and after 14 hours on duty.

Which makes perfect sense. The average human needs eight hours of sleep.

The wakeup call happens one hour before duty starts. 14, 16, or maybe 18
hours later the duty ends. Even at 14 hours, that person should be getting ready for bed, not wondering where the nearest taco bell is...you are already past getting into supper and sleep mode. The 16 or 18 hour duty days put someone awake and active for nearly or in excess of 20 hours. Throw in a couple of min rest periods that give you 9 hours off duty-but only five or six hours of sleep and you have a receipt for disaster. In fact I'm surprised disaster doesn't happen more often!

Small wonder performance begins to suffer!

I lost a friend in an accident that could be blamed in my estimation anywhere between 60 and 80 percent on fatigue. The rules still haven't changed. They won't either untill enough people die, enough NASA forms get filled in and enough pilots use the f word (fatigue) and document it.

And yeah, I don't want to be called a ************************* any more than the next guy, so I don't call in either-we are the problem!

 

[Seadogrun]

Pilotyip - No disrespect intended, but you haven't backed up anything you've said with resources that support your claim. It would be very helpful if you would site your source for your information. So far the best I've heard is "because I said so."

 

[FlyingMoose]

Pilotyip - No disrespect intended, but you haven't backed up anything you've said with resources that support your claim. It would be very helpful if you would site your source for your information. So far the best I've heard is "because I said so."

No disrespect intended here either, Pilotyip, but that is because he can't; it doesn't exist. The arguement he is making is based solely on the invalid misinterpretations that so many carriers and pilots have, for what ever reason, used to justify violating very specifically written regulations. I'll say that another way; companies have been violating these rules for some time after numerous attempts by the FAA (not to be read POI's) to clarify the current regs to no avail. That is why the rewrite has become necessary.

Some of the examples used in this thread have specifically illustrated the very real mentallity some operators have which places vague interpretations of regs in the name of business over common sense safety. Example: maybe it was just to prove a point, so I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but the post regarding the 18 hour scenario (which I absolutely do not feel is in compliance with the regs) might reveal a lot about your operating philosophy, yip. Most significantly, nowhere was there any mention regarding crew fatigue in determining legality. The PIC's determination of crew airworthiness is the first and foremost factor, by regulation. And, yes I do, as does the FAA regulatory division and Chief Counsel, disagree with that interpretation.

Some of the other posters seem to understand the point, what would be the purpose of the rest and duty limitations if you could knowingly begin a flight operation that would violate them. The regulatory requirement at issue is 135.267(d) which stipulates 10 hours of rest in the preceeding 24 hours. The "14 hour duty limit" is actually additional language in 135.267(c). It is very important to understand the language to properly interpret the regs. And they are exactly right, the regs only allow for exceeding "flight" time restrictions, not "duty" times.

Secondly, all those other terms that come up in these discussions and specifically one that you mentioned are of no value in the arguement. "Non-duty non-rest", seriously, even if you wanted to build a case on that made up term it specifically by name is self defeating. "...non-rest". That is the whole legal and practical (safety/fatigue) basis of the issue, it isn't REST! So, yeah, I would agree, you can be in "non-duty non-rest" indefinitely what ever that is. More to the point; your posts seem to suggest that rest is something that is required after an assignment and not prior (i.e. in the 24 hours preceeding the completion of the assignment)..... that ain't how it works.

 

[400pilot]

Once again, I don't get it. Here's what the reg says

(c) A flight crewmember's flight time may exceed the flight time limits of paragraph (b) of this section if the assigned flight time occurs during a regularly assigned duty period of no more than 14 hours and—
(1) If this duty period is immediately preceded by and followed by a required rest period of at least 10 consecutive hours of rest;
(2) If flight time is assigned during this period, that total flight time when added to any other commercial flying by the flight crewmember may not exceed—
(i) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or
(ii) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots; and
(3) If the combined duty and rest periods equal 24 hours.

When you are reading 135.267, ignore part c unless you have a "regularly assigned duty period." That was the point.......

 

[pilotyip]

Fatique not regulated

Never mentioned fatigue, because when a crew is fatigued, they call fatigue and go to the hotel. In fact to fly fatigued, would be a violation of 91.13, careless and reckless. To start a trip at 0600 after a good night's sleep it is almost a no brainer to fly until 2200 or 2300 and still feel fresh. I would rather tail end back to LRD than go through the hassle of staying at MMTO, I will most likely get to bed quicker in LRD. However after no sleep from being up all day and getting called out at 2300, you may find at 0600 the next day after 7 hours you are fatigued, so you call fatigue even though you are still legal for another 7 hours. There is no rest policy that will keep a crew fresh for all flights. How about I call you at 0900, and get you out of bed after 10 hrs of sleep, I tell you to go into rest at 1000 for a 2000 trip. Are you going to get any more rest in the next 9 hours? You will most likely not unless you take sleeping pills. The trip is scheduled for 13 hrs, you are 100% legal by the regs, are you still alert at 0900? you would be legal until 1200 the next morning? As someone else posted here it is the PIC's duty to determine if he can safely make the trip. You cannot regulate that beyond common sense. My experience with this rule comes from inspections with the FAA while reviewing our flight and duty time records.