Requirements to get to fly Corporate

[Rick1128]

When you interview a pilot and you tell them they will have to load bags and freight and it's a one hour call out 6 days a week. And they say that they are willing to do that. Three months later they are pi**ing and moaning about having to load freight and they want 2 days off a week. And with 150 hours in a Lear they are demanding to make Captain.

I had one pilot, I hired as a Navajo PIC. Got him checked out as a Lear SIC. Then he started showing up late. Attitude problems. For some reason the boss had him checked out as a Lear PIC. Then he would start calling in sick when he was asigned a Navajo trip. I'm the DO and I'm flying the Navajo. Don't get me wrong, he does fly a good airplane. But his attitude needs work.

Plus I keep getting resumes from brand new commercial pilots, telling me that they have 250 to 300 hours and their instructor is telling them that they are ready to be a jet captain. These I put in my space cadet file. They only thing they have in common is these people are all ERAU grads.

I have been in this business for a long long time. If it were just one or two people, I would just write it off as one of those things. But I have dealt with many ERAU grads over the years and I continually see the same thing. Now one note, these people are always on their first or second pilot job.

Now ERAU does a fine job academicly. I have had no problem there.

Shibby, I am telling this not to discourage you from ERAU. But to give you a heads up. Thre are a lot of us out here who have had problems with ERAU grads. And all pretty much the same problems. And we tend to be gun shy after the first two or three. What I am trying to telling is that when you interview and they tell you what the job entails and you say "YES" don't come back in three months and start bitching. If they tell you the job is loading baggage, humping freight, taking care of the owner's dog and the owner's wife's cats. You load bags, hump freight , take care of the owner's dog and the owner's wife's cats. You don't call in sick to get out of a BS trip, you are not late to show up, reasonable pleasent. Now we all have our off days and most people make allowances for that. But not every day. Showing up for work on time or a little early, giving 110%, being personable and doing your job will count for more than being a ERAU grad.

Think about this. When you apply for a new job, these people will call your past and present employers. They will ask two questions. First, tell me about this person as an employee. The person answering will never tell them "He's an ERAU grad". They will say something along the lines of either "No comment" or Great employee, Always on time. Does a fine job. Sorry to lose him". And the second questions will be "Would you rehire him?" The answer to that question can make or break your application.


Falcon Capt. first of all I have never asked anyone to do anything illegal or unsafe. I take umberage with that. The majority of the regs are not black and white. If they were, there would be no reason for FAA Legal to issue "Letters of Interpertation" . And they issue a lot of them. On the book shelf behind my desk are three 3 inch ring binders of "Letter of Interpertation" covering just the last 5 years. Even something like who can log PIC time, is not that cut and dried.

 

[bobbysamd]

Maturity

Rick has a point about people who whine about job duties and conditions of employment. You give your word and the employee accepts it in good faith. For an employee to do otherwise is wrong. I know all too well that many employers don't adhere to the same ethics, but we're not talking about employers right now.

The issue here is maturity, or lack thereof. I was much older than my Riddlers and I encountered plenty of immature ones. I also encountered some great kids who worked hard and fly for regionals and majors now. But, substitute "FSI" or "Pan Am" or even less-expensive schools and you'll get the same types. I know, because I instructed at ERAU and FSI.

There were some Riddlers who were coddled big time, by the school, by Mom and Dad, and by others. I encountered my share. I found it sickening. But, once again, substitute "FSI" or "Pan Am" or even less-expensive schools.

While I understand how Rick feels, it's up to the hiring function to ferret out good candidates from the problem types. It's not fair to label someone only because he/she comes from a particular program.

One other point that Rick made that is key to this discussion. He said the ERAUs in question are on their first or second pilot job. These folks are still wet behind the ears. It takes seasoning and life experience to foster maturity.

 

[empenage]

I have 5 friends who graduated from ERAU and from the outside looking in I would say they all got a great education. I dont know so I have to ask this question. Would'nt the school instill the, "you're the best pilot in sky attitude"? It's a terrific accomplishment to complete a course at ERAU. It's not easy.

A senior captain I flew with years ago told me that at ERAU you where trained to graduate and move onto the airlines. Even though she was senior, she always helped with everything. She taught me a lot

I think today we want everything "right now" and get frustrated when we dont get it. I dont think that it is a particular school that instills the attitude.

We hire people for 6 months. If in 6 months the new hire or the flight department has a problem, then that person will not be offered a full time job. Nobody can be on their best behavior for 6 months.

 

[bobbysamd]

ERAU

Your senior captain is right about an ERAU education. Coming from a somewhat substandard Part 61 background, I was always impressed with the overall education of our Riddlers. There was a flaw here and a flaw there, especially in some of the ground schools. But, the academics really were there, overall. They had courses in systems, flight phys and technical writing. I felt that Riddle flight students received a great foundation for an aviation career. Also, ERAU has connections to internships that can open doors to an aviation career.

Getting through a Riddle flight course can be very trying, which is one reason why I feel some of the criticism of ERAU is justified. It seemed as if we never had enough aircraft on our Prescott campus. That, in and of itself, made consistent flight training difficult.

Passing a Riddle stage check was difficult. I am sure that was because most of the stage check pilots had little instructing experience and were mostly ERAU grads. They hadn't seen enough flying outside of Riddle and gave them a very narrow point of view. That made them very dogmatic. Also, there was a maturity factor among many Riddle stage check pilots which compounded the problem. Moreover, stage checks counted heavily toward a student's final grade. That added to the pressure. I had just started at Riddle and had a student who was flying well for me. He flew just fine the morning before his stage check that afternoon. He drew one of the more sullen and intimidating stage check pilots, who busted him. We went up and he passed his recheck. I felt that the bust was so unfair to my student that I changed a couple of grades I gave him so he would get a B in his flight course. The student deserved it. He didn't deserve to be hosed by an unfair and inexperienced check pilot.

Apart from immaturity, maybe one reason why some Riddle grads are arrogant is because the school feeds them propaganda about how "wonderful" they are. I observed a lot of that among the flight team. I recall at least one member who was a student of mine. He had a real attitude.

Once again, in my .02, you can't beat a Riddle education. However, once again, substitute, e.g., UND, Parks College or F.I.T. for each ERAU reference or example above, and the story will generally be the same.

 

[Rick1128]

Your missing the point

It was my belief that I was trying to pass on to Shibby that no matter where he goes to school, he needs to understand the most important things he will bring to the job is a good attitude and work ethic. And to keep that in mind when he is fed the BS that ERAU feeds their students.

When I have a pilot that I am entrusting our clients/customers/people to. Plus entrusting a crew and aircraft worth hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions of dollars, The two things I do not want to hear about that pilot in the same sentence is 'professional pilot' and 'immature/immaturity'. They don't go together.

To my knowledge, I have never dealt with anyone from FIT, UND or Parks. I have dealt with the old Burnside OTT and Spartan grads. Nothing stands out. FSI, I have have dealt with people from the First Officer Program but not the academy. There a problem here or there, but that is about it.

I will be the first to admit, I do not like ERAU grads. Mostly because everyone of them I have had has caused problems. And I don't mean little problems either. I mean things like PO'ing his Chief Pilot and DO. Or having his Chief Pilot refusing to fly with him. I tend to dislike people who cause me problems. I get enough problems from the FAA and my boss. And they DON"T need any help in that area! The other irritant is that they keep throwing the fact of where they went to school in your face. Especially when you are trying to give them some career guidance. In the military they would be called 'Ring Knockers'.

As for being jealous of not going to school there, I couldn't care less. I learned more the way came up than most ERAU grads ever will. I am working for a company that treats me reasonable well. Pays me decently. ANd I fly maintained equipment. Not the newest by any means. But everything works and the inspections are really done. It ain't glass, but you can't have everything. Would I like to move up to a G5 or Global, Hell, yes. But I will not lose any sleep over it. I'm living where I want and I don't take a lot of crap from my boss or our customer/clients/passengers. I am a big fish in a small pond and I can deal with it. In short, I got mine.

 

[banned username 2]

I think you are missing the point, the problems you are seeing are not indemic to ERAU grads so much as they are indemic to most of the "new pilots" these days who all they have seen is people getting hired to fly RJ's with 800 hours... They have this twisted misconception about what it is to be a pilot, and think everything needs to be catered to them...

Just read some of the posts on this board, MANY of these younger pilots feel that the airlines exist for one reason, to give THEM a place to fly airplanes, get paid and have a retirement... They feel the Airlines OWE them a huge salary, comfy retirement and leading edge equipment... Or that they deserve bigger salaries even though their companies are loosing millions or even billions of dollars!

I personally get very sick of these guys whinning because they have 800 hours and are still "stuck" being a CFI... this especially p!sses me off because of the thousands of much more qualified guys who are out there on furlough... The whinning gets old, and personally, I hope a lot of these whinners get tired of waiting for "their" RJ job (remember, the one that is OWED to them) and quit flying all together... I saw this same thing happen back in 1990... It was a little house cleaning for the industry... Just like a forest fire clears the forest and allows new growth, it is a regenerative process... These times in our industry are the same thing...

Like you said, these people have all been on their first or second job... They are still very young, inexperienced and immature... it is more to their age and lack of experience then where they went to school... Remember the big Universities are in business to make money, if they continually tell students "the industry sucks and you will probably fly as a CFI in a 172 for 3+ years" they will lose much of their business... They train you for a career in Aviation, and they focus on the stuff that sells... Airline or Corporate careers... not CFIing, or Charter or flying Freight.... these things aren't perceived as rewarding or glamourous... Well these kids get out and expect to cash in immediately... their immaturity leads them to believe it will happen right away.... They have no desire to "pay their dues" they want the big pay-off immediately.

As far as ERAU, being that it is so expensive, about 1/3 of the students there are from very rich families... Most (I said most, NOT all) of these kids are spoiled brats and would be no matter what field they were in... flying just looked "fun" to them... So since Daddy was footing the bill it looked like the way to go... These are the guys (and gals) you want to avoid like the plague... Bad news altogether... (looks to me like you've had the "plague" a couple times).... the OTHER 2/3 are hard working people who have a strong desire to have a successful Aviation Career.... They work hard and earn what they get... some are from rich families, some are from poor families with loans out the waazoo... These are they type of people you want to hire.. they have a very strong background from ERAU, they have a good attitude and strong work ethic... all around good people....

Here is a little story for you: When I was a Chief Flight Instructor, a guy I went to College with came in looking for a job he was wearing ratty shorts, sandles and a t-shirt (we were a casual flight school as our instructors could wear jeans, just had to appear neat), but this guy looked like a total slob. I didn't really know him at school, only recognized the name, but he came on like he was my buddy and then started in his rant that I OWED him a job because we graduated together! I sat and listened in disbelief.. I was stunned... Obviously this dude was off his rocker... Well needless to say, he didn't get hired... His attitude wasn't due to where he went to school but from the fact that he was immature. Any mature, rational adult would know better than this, he didn't...

Anyhow I am getting tired of typing (as you are probably getting tired of reading)... There are some bad eggs that come out of ERAU... But there are bad eggs everywhere.... and as far as whinning and the prima-donna attitudes.. just read this message board a little closer, you will be amazed at what you will read... and less than 10% of these people are ERAU grads...

Falcon Capt.
ERAU Class of 1990

 

[empenage]

Falcon Capt:

Good post. I had a discussion on a similar note. We dont raise Mothers or Fathers anymore either. We raise our kids on "Instant Gratification". You want it and 2 seconds later BAM you got it. It isnt just ERAU grads. The last few generations lost the work ethic.

 

[empenage]

Falcon Capt:

Good post. I had a discussion on a similar note. We dont raise Mothers or Fathers anymore either. We raise our kids on "Instant Gratification". You want it and 2 seconds later BAM you got it. It isnt just ERAU grads. The last few generations lost the work ethic.

 

[banned username 2]

Personally, I'd love to start out on a turboprop, to gain experience there. Then "work up the ladder" so to speak.

THIS is EXACTLY what I am talking about... "Start out" in a Turbo-Prop... What happened to the good ol' 172??? 300 hours and he is going to "step down" to a Turbo Prop!!! Oh PLEEEEEEZE!

All these new kids expect to "start out" 3 or 4 rungs up the ladder... THIS is the attitude that is causing the problems that Rick is seeing... No body want to work their way up from the bottom... they want to start in the middle and work up... Like Empenage was saying, "Instant Gratification"....

Well I think this downturn in the industry will be a wake-up call for many of these people, and they will realize this profession is a LOT more than just steering an airplane around the skys for a couple hours a day!

 

[empenage]

OK, this is it for me:

I worked baleing hay as a kid and the crews the old farmer hired for the summers were always hard workers. So I asked him one day how he picked his crews.

He said its simple kid...he always called me kid..."I hire the ones who show up without their hands in their pockets".

See ya.