Required Pilot-to-Controller Responses

[PGH STEEL]

$.02



RE: niner... "nine" means no in German...there's reasons behind the phonetics on a radio...try using it

English is used world wide in Aviation even in Germany. Why would the controller think I'm telling him/her no on a simple Freq change.
Twr N56789 Dep now 119.35 11no.35 78no SEE YA huh

 

['72Gremlin]

AIM does give an example of how to report leaving an altitude:

[FONT=KABKBO+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]

[SIZE=+1]Section 3. En Route Procedures[/SIZE]​

5-3-1. ARTCC Communications

b. ATC Frequency Change Procedures. ​

1. The following phraseology will be used by controllers to effect a frequency change:
EXAMPLE-
(Aircraft identification) contact (facility name or location name and terminal function) (frequency) at (time, fix, or altitude).
NOTE-
Pilots are expected to maintain a listening watch on the transferring controller's frequency until the time, fix, or altitude specified. ATC will omit frequency change restrictions whenever pilot compliance is expected upon receipt.
2. The following phraseology should be utilized by pilots for establishing contact with the designated facility:
(a) When operating in a radar environment: On initial contact, the pilot should inform the controller of the aircraft's assigned altitude preceded by the words "level," or "climbing to," or "descending to," as appropriate; and the aircraft's present vacating altitude, if applicable.
EXAMPLE-
1. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEVEL (altitude or flight level).
2. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEAVING (exact altitude or flight level), CLIMBING TO OR DESCENDING TO (altitude of flight level).
NOTE-
Exact altitude or flight level means to the nearest 100 foot increment. Exact altitude or flight level reports on initial contact provide ATC with information required prior to using Mode C altitude information for separation purposes.



[/FONT]
Given, this is in the "Frequency Change Procedures" section, but it provides an example of how to report "leaving" an altitude.

I see that 5-3-3-a-1 can be interpreted in two different ways. When an instrutor pointed this out to me years ago (when I didn't include the vacating altitude in my readback), he showed me 5.5.3 in the AIM, and I interpreted it to mean that you had to include the altitude your were vacating. Afterall, that is the reason for the additional report in the first place, so why wouldn't you add that piece of information? However, after reading that sentence over and over again, I agree that AIM is not technically directive on HOW to make that additional report and a readback of the altitude you're vacating is not "required."

I do understand the need to declutter the radio waves in high density traffic areas with succint, to the point, radio transmissions. That additional 2 seconds of information, though, may not make a difference to the air traffic controller, but it may increase the situational awareness of other pilots in the same area. Or it may clue a controller in on an aircraft attemping to accept a altitude clearance intended for someone else.

The Air Force, on the other hand, is much more directive on what a pilot must readback. A pilot must readback an altitude (departing and assigned) when assigned an new altitude.

AFMAN 11-217V1 3 JANUARY 2005

11.7. Pilot Responsibilities.

[FONT=KABKBO+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]11.7.1. During Vectors. [/FONT][FONT=KABJNN+TimesNewRoman,BoldItali,Times New Roman]While being radar vectored, repeat all headings, altitudes (departing and assigned), and altimeter settings; and comply with controller instructions[/FONT][FONT=KABKBO+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]. [/FONT]
[FONT=KABKBO+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]

There must be a reason for that.


Thanks, all, for the good discussion on an misunderstood topic. And just to set the record straight, the guy I flew with was really a good dude and nice guy. I was just caught off guard with his interpretation of 5.5.3 and what I thought was technically correct and came to ya'll for help/clarification for my own edification. I appreciate the good comments.

Gremlin

[/FONT]

 

[soarby007]

AIM 5-3-1 (b)
When in Radar contact:

(a)When operating in a radar environment: On initial contact, the pilot should inform the controller of the aircraft's assigned altitude preceded by the words "level", or "climbing to" or "descending to", as appropriate, and the aircrafts present vacating altitude, if applicaable.

Example 2: (Name) Center, Leaving (altitude or flight level), climbing to or descending to (altitude or flight level).

Looks to me the Captain was right.

 

[paulsalem]

5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.


Looks to me the Captain was wrong.​

 

[soarby007]

Yeaah...

I meant to say the FO was right. Captain obviously wrong. Thanks for your brilliancy in catching my error.

 

[paulsalem]

Soarboy007,

I thought you were arguing that you only have to report the altitude you are leaving on inital contact.

That's why I quted 5-3-3.

Sorry,

Paul

 

[districtpilot]

Great discussion rise from the dead thread!!!!!

 

[FlySacto]

$.02



RE: niner... "nine" means no in German...there's reasons behind the phonetics on a radio...try using it

English is used world wide in Aviation even in Germany. Why would the controller think I'm telling him/her no on a simple Freq change.
Twr N56789 Dep now 119.35 11no.35 78no SEE YA huh

I was leaving SFO yesterday while there was a Luftansa guy on final who asked twice in a heavy accent about "is there a winds reporting at the san francisco" After asking twice I figured it out and chimed in "wind check". Tower gave one and he gave back a thank you. Almost as bad as some of the Japanese english we hear.

Back to topic. The Cpt was off base. Like Mark said though. Perhaps using "for" or using the term "departing" got his feathers ruffled. We depart fixes and vacate altitudes. I'm becoming a radio nazi over time and cringe at some of the things I hear, and occasionaly the slip up and things I say on freq.

 

[stknrdr]

In high volume traffic areas, the most short and sweet response that gets the message across is kind of common sense. When 50-100nm out and ATC advises you to cross a fix at an altitude or descend via an arrival you might want to let them know when you're starting down (and from what altitude) when you decide to begin the descent. The AIM is always good form, but pilots that just like to hear themselves talk or do a little chest-pounding are a dumb as they sound. If you're on the radio more than 3 seconds per most transmissions you're really not getting it....

 

[NCherches]

I still like the guys who are 5.1 miles from the VOR and the time it takes a jet pilot to answer the question "say your position"