Required Pilot-to-Controller Responses

['72Gremlin]

A captain recently b!tch slapped me (ok, he really didn't slap me) for reading back the altitude that we were vacating, i.e. "departing FL 260 for FL 200," when given an altitude change.

When replying to an altitude change clearance, I was under the impression pilots were required to include the altitude you are vacating in the readback.

For the life of me, I've searched the AIM and FARs, and haven't found any reference to this. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks in advance.

 

[Bus Driver]

AIM:
5-3-3
a.1

 

[midlifeflyer]

maybe he slapped you for saying "for" ?

 

[Flying Illini]

Well go bit#h slap him back b/c he doesn't know what he's talking about:

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0503.html#5-3-3

5-3-3. Additional Reports​

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:​

1. At all times.​

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.​

 

[districtpilot]

The only time I include an altitude that I am climbing or descending through is on initial call up to a new facility. If you are in radar contact and are given a different altitude, they know what altitude you began at. As far as the AIM rule, I read it as a report needs to be made when vacating an altitude, but it doesn't state you have to say the altitude you are vacating through.

 

[paulsalem]

This is from Don Brown's column "SAY AGAIN" on avweb
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182638-1.html
His columns are full of intesting info on this and many other atc subjects.
---------------------------------------------------------------------




While I have you held captive in the holding pattern, let me give you another sermon on the rules. You know that silly rule that says you're supposed to state your altitude leaving when you're assigned a new altitude? You knew it was in there for a reason, didn't you?

AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports



​

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight
level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.



​

Now we plug in the controller side of the equation from the FAA 7110.65

5-5-5. VERTICAL APPLICATION



​

b. Assign an altitude to an aircraft after the aircraft previously at that altitude has been issued a climb/descent clearance and is observed (valid Mode C), or reports leaving the altitude.



​

There you are in a holding pattern at 12,000 with a dozen other airplanes stacked above you and Approach starts running them again.

ZTL: "Airliner 123 cleared over the SHINE intersection to CLT via the SHINE5 arrival descend and maintain one one thousand.
AIR123: Airliner 123 cleared to CLT down to one one thousand.
ZTL: (sigh). Airliner 123 say altitude leaving.
AIR123: Uh, we're out of twelve.
ZTL: Airliner 234 descend and maintain one two thousand.
AIR234: We're descending to one two thousand Airliner234
ZTL: (big sigh) Airliner 234 say altitude leaving.
AIR234: Airliner 234 is leaving one three thousand for one two thousand.
ZTL: Roger, Airliner345 descend and maintain one three thousand.



​

Have you ever seen a radar scope with a full holding pattern? All those targets dragging those big data blocks over the same spot? Ever tried to observe someone's Mode C when it's like that? We're lucky if we can find your data block, much less observe your Mode C. Getting the picture?

 

[A Squared]

That's not the only time that DOn Brown has mentioned that, either. He's worked that into his columns a couple of times. I doubt the'd be emphasizing it if it didn't matter.

Yes, you are suposed to report the the altitude leaving.

Yes, it is important, for reasons which may not be obvious to us.

Yes, your captain is wrong.

 

['72Gremlin]

Thanks for taking the time and finding this for me. I know a lot of pilots omit the altitude you're vacating when assigned another altitude and I started to doubt myself. Once again, thanks for the lesson and for your time to reply.

 

[Peanut gallery]

Very few people call vacating when just recieving a clearance

Right or wrong it is just what you hear out there. I never call vacating when given a simple altitude change when heading across the planet. I always give a vacating call when in a holding pattern due to scope clutter on the controllers side of the equation. Just what I hear out there.

 

['72Gremlin]

Right or wrong it is just what you hear out there. I never call vacating when given a simple altitude change when heading across the planet. I always give a vacating call when in a holding pattern due to scope clutter on the controllers side of the equation. Just what I hear out there.

I've noticed that, too. I think there needs to be a certain level of appropriateness. If the radios are cluttered, it may be appropriate to keep the radio calls succint; however, if there's relatively light traffic on the radio waves, I'll comply with what the AIM says. It's just good form.

Thanks for you input.

 

[minitour]

I always report leaving an altitude if I'm there...what I have a hard time understanding is the climb/descent calls.

On departure, I'll be switched over to uh...departure.

"Podunk Departure, Bugsmasher 123 climbing 1,300 to maintain 3,000 heading 240."

"Bugsmasher 123, Podunk Departure radar contact climb and maintain 6,000"

"Maintain 6000, Smasher 123"

Is this correct or should I say "leaving 1,500 (now that i've come up a few hundy) to maintain 6,000"?

Same thing in the descent.

"Smasher 123, descend and maintiain 14,000"

"Leaving FL 210 to maintain 14,000...smasher 123"

*somewhere around 15,500*
"Smasher 123 descend and maintain 8,000 contact Podunk Approach 111.11"

"Descend and maintain 8,000 and Podunk on 111.11, smasher 123"

Again...do I report that I'm descending through 15,500 to Center or only when I check on with Podunk?

"Podunk Approach, Bugsmasher 123 15,500 descending 8,000"

Well now that I've confused myself, I think I'll go....

-mini

 

[A Squared]

Mini,

You're confusing two different (but similar) reports.

On *initial* contact with a facility, you should report your current altitude, along with altitude climbing to or descending to. AIM 3-3-1 b 2 (a) This allows the controller to check your reported altitude against your mode C readout for discrepancies (problems with his equipment, you're on a bad altimiter setting, etc) You'd only do that whem contacting a new facitilty.

The subject of this thread is 3-3-3 a 1, which requires reporting when leaving an *assigned* altituude, not reporting the altitude you're through on each and every transmission.

 

[minitour]

Mini,

You're confusing two different (but similar) reports.

On *initial* contact with a facility, you should report your current altitude, along with altitude climbing to or descending to. AIM 3-3-1 b 2 (a) This allows the controller to check your reported altitude against your mode C readout for discrepancies (problems with his equipment, you're on a bad altimiter setting, etc) You'd only do that whem contacting a new facitilty.

The subject of this thread is 3-3-3 a 1, which requires reporting when leaving an *assigned* altituude, not reporting the altitude you're through on each and every transmission.

I understand the two different reports...what I'm confused with is the report in 3-3-3-a-1.

If I'm *assigned* 3,000 on departure...and when switched to departure (through about 1800') told to maintain 6,000...do I now report leaving 3,000 climbing 6,000? Common sense tells me no since I'm still down at 1800'.

Likewise...on approach. Leaving FL190 descending 13,000....around 15,000 the airspace is clear below me and Approach gives me "Descend and maintain 4,000"... I was *assigned* 13,000...now I'm *assigned* 4,000...but I never got to 13,000...so it would seem stupid to report leaving that altitude as I was never there. Now, if I was handed to another controller with the descent to 4,000 I understand my initial contact with the new guy would be:
"Approach, N123 13,800 descending 4,000"

...but what if I don't get the handoff? Do I report "leaving 13,800 to maintain 4,000"? Seems silly... Typically when given a new altitude when I haven't reached my previously assigned I just read back "climb and maintain XXX, N123"...but since something was assigned...should I be reporting leaving that altitude?

Maybe I missed a "when to report" in the AIM that clears this up?

-mini

 

[A Squared]

I understand the two different reports...what I'm confused with is the report in 3-3-3-a-1.

If I'm *assigned* 3,000 on departure...and when switched to departure (through about 1800') told to maintain 6,000...do I now report leaving 3,000 climbing 6,000? Common sense tells me no since I'm still down at 1800'.

Likewise...on approach. Leaving FL190 descending 13,000....around 15,000 the airspace is clear below me and Approach gives me "Descend and maintain 4,000"... I was *assigned* 13,000...now I'm *assigned* 4,000...but I never got to 13,000...so it would seem stupid to report leaving that altitude as I was never there. Now, if I was handed to another controller with the descent to 4,000 I understand my initial contact with the new guy would be:
"Approach, N123 13,800 descending 4,000"

...but what if I don't get the handoff? Do I report "leaving 13,800 to maintain 4,000"? Seems silly... Typically when given a new altitude when I haven't reached my previously assigned I just read back "climb and maintain XXX, N123"...but since something was assigned...should I be reporting leaving that altitude?

Maybe I missed a "when to report" in the AIM that clears this up?

-mini

my understnading (flawed as that may be) is that if you are *maintaining* that assigned altitude, then you report leaving it. Otherwise you wouldn't report descending or climbing through it. The purpose of the 3-3-3 a 1 call is to let the controller know that you are in fact starting your descent (without him having to watch your data block) so that he may now assign that altitude to another plane. If you've contacted departure through 13,400 descending to 9000 and he clears you to 7000, he already knows that you're descending, and he's not going to assign 9000 to a plane higher then you.

 

[minitour]

my understnading (flawed as that may be) is that if you are *maintaining* that assigned altitude, then you report leaving it. Otherwise you wouldn't report descending or climbing through it. The purpose of the 3-3-3 a 1 call is to let the controller know that you are in fact starting your descent (without him having to watch your data block) so that he may now assign that altitude to another plane. If you've contacted departure through 13,400 descending to 9000 and he clears you to 7000, he already knows that you're descending, and he's not going to assign 9000 to a plane higher then you.

Royer.

So...I'm in good shape. Bueno.

Thanks for the clarification.

-mini

 

[Draginass]

That captain sounds like one of those guys that feels the need to lord it over people. The problem with that is those people are almost always idiots.

 

[pilothouston123]

I must say something about this.... this is all about communcation and are you being loud and clear with your message. Does Center get what they need out of your reply's and are the responces consie and to the point. Langague is art and open to inturputation.

If a captian is repimanding you for the way you talk on the raidio... He is probably being petty and should be told to lighten up.

I had a guy like that... should have told him to lay off my ass the first chance i got

 

[MauleSkinner]

My question is, if it's so darn important, why'd they take it out of the regs?

 

[A Squared]

My question is, if it's so darn important, why'd they take it out of the regs?

Why'd they take *what* out of the regs?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Why'd they take *what* out of the regs?

Ah...disregard...consider it an example of the "negative" principle of primacy in learning. Learned it wrong first, and can't unlearn it fast enoug. Sorry.

David

 

[twighead]

The only time I include an altitude that I am climbing or descending through is on initial call up to a new facility. If you are in radar contact and are given a different altitude, they know what altitude you began at. As far as the AIM rule, I read it as a report needs to be made when vacating an altitude, but it doesn't state you have to say the altitude you are vacating through.

this is exactly right. it just says that you have to report when leaving for the new altitude. nowhere does it specify how you report it, or that you have to verbalize the altitude you are leaving and the one you are going to.

 

[NCherches]

Well your also suppose to say "FIFE" and NINER all the time. Some people are too serious on the radio...we need to have more fun.

 

[Sphinx]

<sigh>

Well your also suppose to say "FIFE" and NINER all the time. Some people are too serious on the radio...we need to have more fun.

$.02

Not in radio communications with control. (re: we need to have more fun)

RE: niner... "nine" means no in German...there's reasons behind the phonetics on a radio...try using them, your controllers will appreciate it. TCDP all can sound the same over chatter. Do you actually think the phonetics are for fun? <rolls eyes>

 

[Sphinx]

fun

Christ...I'm up to a nickel...

Fun??? you've logged over 3500+ hours...you're a pilot...You should be having fun...if you're not...give the little piece of plastic you hold in your wallet back..and Drive Cross Country.

 

[NCherches]

What is your picture of? I think my MSFS had one of those... anyways, relax, controllers are people, they understand nine and yes. Not all of them speak german belive it or not.

 

[PHX767]

Pilot's Discretion descents...

The above mentioned rule really makes sense when you think of it in conjunction with a pilot's discretion descent:

Cruising at FL350, you recieve a clearance, "Descend pilot's discretion to maintain FL 250"

When you decide to descend, you would notify ATC, "Vacating FL350 for 250"

This is an example of vacating a previously assigned altitude.

 

[twighead]

Well your also suppose to say "FIFE" and NINER all the time. Some people are too serious on the radio...we need to have more fun.

don't forget "tree" instead of three

 

[flystoomuch]

Amen!!!

Originally posted by districtpilot:
“The only time I include an altitude that I am climbing or descending through is on initial call up to a new facility. If you are in radar contact and are given a different altitude, they know what altitude you began at. As far as the AIM rule, I read it as a report needs to be made when vacating an altitude, but it doesn't state you have to say the altitude you are vacating through.”

Originally posted by Twighead:
“this is exactly right. it just says that you have to report when leaving for the new altitude. NOWHERE does it specify how you report it, or that you have to verbalize the altitude you are leaving and the one you are going to.”

AMEN!!!

In a radar environment, THEY ALREADY KNOW WHAT ALTITUDE YOU’RE AT… they could care less if you SAY the altitude you are leaving AND the newly assigned altitude… it just adds to radio clutter especially in a high traffic environment.

All they need you to do is to CLEARLY and DISTINCTLY say what altitude you’re are climbing or descending to in your readback.

Examples:
“Falcon 123 descending to eight thousand;” or…

“Eight thousand for Falcon 123:” or…

“Down to eight thousand, Falcon 123.”

Originally Posted by PHX767:
“The above mentioned rule really makes sense when you think of it in conjunction with a pilot's discretion descent: Cruising at FL350, you recieve a clearance, "Descend pilot's discretion to maintain FL 250" When you decide to descend, you would notify ATC, "Vacating FL350 for 250" This is an example of vacating a previously assigned altitude.”

Right on again!

The AIM 5-3-3 reference certainly is valid for a “Pilot’s Discretion” clearance.
“Falcon 123 is descending now to eight thousand” That’s just to keep things honest and makes sure he didn’t forget about the PD he gave to you and clear another aircraft to cross your path while you were still hangin’ around in the flight levels (has happened).

Getting back to the original quote from ’72 Gremlin:
“I was under the impression pilots were ‘REQUIRED’ to include the altitude you are vacating in the readback.”

While it clearly is not “REQUIRED,” I guess you could say that it’s not necessarily wrong either. It just adds to frequency clutter especially in high traffic situations.

My bet is the Captain was just trying to get you into the swing of things.

There’s quite a bit of other frequency clutter out there that’s a LOT more annoying… ESPECIALLY when the controller is spitting out instructions like a tobacco auctioneer on amphetamines (e.g., “Good morning Atlanta Center, this is Falcon 123 with you, level at, and checking in at Flight Level 310”… when all that needs to be said is… “Falcon 123 at 310”). In other words, don’t waste 8 seconds of the controllers time with two seconds worth of information (i.e., He already knows it’s a “Good morning”, he already knows he’s “Atlanta Center”, he already knows “this is”, he already knows you’re “with him, level at, and/or checking in”). I’m now going to step down off my soapbox.

I can appreciate Don Brown’s holding pattern scope clutter scenario although I’ve mentioned it to a couple of controller friends of mine that don’t seem to have a problem with it either way. I will however consider it the next time I’m stacked in a hold.

I highly respect A Squared’s opinion, but I don’t think there is a distinct right or wrong on this particular subject.

That’s my fifty cent.

Flame away!

 

[A Squared]

I highly respect A Squared’s opinion, but I don’t think there is a distinct right or wrong on this particular subject.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

That’s my fifty cent.

Flame away!

Hey, no flames, it's just a discussion. The only real point of contention I have is that you and a couple of others have said that this is only applicable to pilot's discretion descents. Now, I'm at a loss how anyone can read the words "at all times" and think it really means: "only when you've been issued a PD descent" Clearly "at all times" means" "at all times" not: "only some of the time". I think I worded it a little strongly when I said "required" the AIM is recomendations, in most cases very good recomendations. My point was that the original poster was doing it as per the AIM recommendations, and that his captain is out of line telling him he's wrong. As far as controllers you've talked to, hey controllers are probably at least as different as pilots are. Don Brown tends to favor a "do it by the book, there's good reasons for it" approach but no blindly so. One of the things that impresses me about him, is that whenever he says "look, do this like the AIM says to do it" he backs it up with real world examples why that way is better. Naturally, you'll find less conservative controllers who don't think the AIM is as important.

One last thing as food for thought. A couple of you have made the obervation that when things get busy, it's best to shorten things up and leave stuff out of your calls. Again I'll drag Don into this, sorry to keep doing it, but over the couple of years I've been reading his columns, I've developed a very high regard for his opinions on things like this. ANyway, his view (and like all of them, he backs it up with excelent examples) is that making your transmissions shorter than the AIM recommendecd format, actually uses up *more* of his time on frequency because of increased requests for repeats, resulting from the less clear communication. In other words, the air time you save by dropping a word or two out of your transmission is small compared to the time lost as a result of him asking you to clarify. So to even it out on the time budget, one request for a repeat has to be offset by many people dropping out words, but if many people drop out words, the number of repeats goes up. it's a viscious cycle. Just something to think about.

 

[100LL... Again!]

That Captain is a tool. It is harmless to report the altitude passing through even if not required.