Republic gone in 2011?

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Your revisionist history and spin on what actually happened doesn't mean squat. "Openers" with no ability to negotiate or arbitrate are worthless...

I dont believe FAPA was being forthright with the pilot group. They were contacted many times to continue negotiations for another day. They walked away and did not return our attempts at contact. That is a FACT.

Doesnt matter anyway. The deal did not go through, because it became no longer worth the price. If SWA wanted to up the RAH ante by a $1 and nix the labor contingency, they would have. Its not as if there was a shortage of cash. F9 could have agreed to a staple, or we could have put them on top of the list, and THE DEAL STILL WOULD NOT HAVE GONE THROUGH. Dont waste time thinking about opportunity squandered. There never really was one.

 

[shagadelic]

Nobody has mentioned the possibility of RAH spinning off some Denver assets and getting back to their core business model... of course, anything they were to spin off would certainly be below the 50% threshold of total company assets. No B/M there...

 

[altimaklr]

Frontier = losing money
Midwest = losing money
Hawaii = failure
E135 = worthless
E145 = obsolete
E170 = burns a lot more fuel than a CR9


Seems like a great business model

 

[StaySeated]

I dont believe FAPA was being forthright with the pilot group. They were contacted many times to continue negotiations for another day. They walked away and did not return our attempts at contact. That is a FACT.

Doesnt matter anyway. The deal did not go through, because it became no longer worth the price. If SWA wanted to up the RAH ante by a $1 and nix the labor contingency, they would have. Its not as if there was a shortage of cash. F9 could have agreed to a staple, or we could have put them on top of the list, and THE DEAL STILL WOULD NOT HAVE GONE THROUGH. Dont waste time thinking about opportunity squandered. There never really was one.

First paragraph, 100% inaccurate. Feel free to provide the details of who you are referring to when you say "they walked away" and "did not return our attempts to contact". I actually enjoy the fact that SWAPA folks keep bringing this piece up. I realize that you have been told a story about unanswered calls. If SWAPA pilots keep asking, maybe SWAPA will be forced to substantiate the claims.

Who was called? Who made the call(s)? Surely SWAPA must have called the FAPA office, or several members of the FAPA BoD, if they were so desperate to continue "negotiations". In this digital age, it is impossible to make a call without a record. It is also impossible to recall an email.

Anyone that is claiming that there was one unanswered call is either uniformed or intentionally misleading you.

Second paragraph, 100% accurate.

 

[Dolce]

Talking to my rep, after the fact, who just happens to now be the head cheese at SWAPA...his word was FAPA knew our constraints and didn't come to the table with any real desire to negotiate! Sounded to me FAPA leadership had their minds made up and decided to "roll the bones" when it came to RAH...something related to creditors and better deal for RAH and the such! The whole negotiations lasted less than 5 hrs max and FAPA refused to budge...after it was explained the reasoning SWAPA stance was the way it had to be with the time constraints. Did say FAPA refused to take some last minute calls that night just before time expired. He did reiterate the FAPA president came to the table not willing to negotiate and was just going through the motion even with a fence, pay protection or raises if applicable and the like. Just what he told me when I questioned him one night in SEA immediately afterwards.

 

[slaquer5]

Talking to my rep, after the fact, who just happens to now be the head cheese at SWAPA...his word was FAPA knew our constraints and didn't come to the table with any real desire to negotiate! Sounded to me FAPA leadership had their minds made up and decided to "roll the bones" when it came to RAH...something related to creditors and better deal for RAH and the such! The whole negotiations lasted less than 5 hrs max and FAPA refused to budge...after it was explained the reasoning SWAPA stance was the way it had to be with the time constraints. Did say FAPA refused to take some last minute calls that night just before time expired. He did reiterate the FAPA president came to the table not willing to negotiate and was just going through the motion even with a fence, pay protection or raises if applicable and the like. Just what he told me when I questioned him one night in SEA immediately afterwards.

My U2 brother speaks the truth. That is exactly how it went down. The sad part is FAPA could care less. Talk about selling out your own brothers.

 

[boomlrd]

That's because one of FAPA's MEC members was an ex-SWA employee who was terminated in the 80's, he would not be allowed to return. So he pushed his agenda so that he could stay Captain till 65 at Frontier. I got that from a guy who knows a guy.

 

[arjayeffo]

Every piece of evidence that I have, whether it be a first hand account, or nothing more than my gut feeling, tells me that the only offer ever made to FAPA from SWAPA was ‘staple’. STAPLE STAPLE STAPLE

First hand account: From a very reputable FAPA source – (Paraphrasing of course, but accurate nonetheless) ‘It was almost comical how it went down. SWAPA opened with staple, and then we presented our opener’ (as for our opener, yeah it may seem ridiculous to you SWA guys, but as far as good-faith negotiations are concerned, it was exactly where they should have started – nobody said it was where we expected to finish). ‘After that, SWAPA offered their counter – staple. And then it dragged on for the rest of the five hours… Are you going to take the staple? C’mon guys, 15 minutes left…NOW will you take the staple? Geez guys, five minutes left, will you take the staple? Okay, there’s like one minute left, we HAVE to get this done – take the staple. We can’t extend the time, are you going to take the staple?’

I have no interest in making things up – this is actually what I heard from a very reputable source.

Talking to my rep...his word was FAPA knew our constraints and didn't come to the table with any real desire to negotiate!

Evidently, your ‘constraints’ were – Staple.

If SWAPA had come to the table with ‘any real desire to negotiate’, then what was your ‘real’ counter-offer, to FAPA’s ‘ridiculous’ offer? Were we attempting to start at the fringes and move to the middle? If so, what was SWAPA’s next compromise away from staple?

...after it was explained the reasoning SWAPA stance was the way it had to be with the time constraints.

If you were so interested in coming to the table to negotiate, then why did you wait until there was only five hours left to begin? GK made it known WELL in advance that there would be no deal without a pilot agreement – yet you waited until the last minute to open negotiations… You had FAPA leadership down to Dallas for the whirlwind tour and dinner with GK many days before the deadline, why not start talking then? If you had the ability to place ‘last minute’ phone calls and emails that went ‘unanswered’, what kept you from using phone calls and emails to start negotiating days beforehand?

Simple – because the only deal that was ever offered, or ever going to be offered, was STAPLE. Starting negotiations earlier than 5 hours would have only been a waste of SWAPA’s time if there were no intention of any other offer. Besides that, I am pretty sure that SWAPA thought it would be a slam-dunk – we would gladly bend over and say thank you for such an offer. Or maybe that a ticking clock in the background might make us lose our heads and agree to anything other than RAH.

So after 5 hours of being offered staple, and us refusing to take it, SWAPA started to scramble. They had to go back and deliver the shocking news to GK, the plan hadn’t worked out so well – astonishingly FAPA didn’t take the bait. GK had left it up to SWAPA to work things out to make the deal happen. So even if there were 13th hour phone calls or emails that were made (which I doubt), why waste time answering them when you had proven already that the only thing you were saying was STAPLE! Orrr… maybe after telling GK that their plan hadn’t worked out so well, SWAPA had been instructed to finally make some kind of a reasonable offer – maybe this was the purpose of the after-hours phone calls and emails. Since nothing more than a staple had ever been offered by SWAPA, what is your ‘head cheese’s’ position on the reason for making more calls and sending more emails? Was it something like… “Okay, Gary is pissed, no more fooling around, NOW will you take the staple?”

But if everything is like you say it is, then why change now? Something caused GK to change his mind when it came to the AirTran deal. So which is it? Is the pilot morale not as important this time around to give SWAPA the make or break power? Or is the deal too important to SWA for him to give SWAPA the power to screw it up? Really, seriously… why didn’t he make this deal contingent on your agreement this time? What changed? His faith in SWAPA perhaps?

Now comes the really shocking part. I don’t blame SWAPA for taking the ‘STAPLE or NOTHING’ stance. There. I said it. In your position, you had the success and the clout to pull it off. This type of deal only made sense for your pilot group if we took the staple.

From our point of view, we deserved better. (‘Better’, meaning a better offer from you. Not better as in ‘choosing’ RAH as the better option) This deal only made sense for our pilot group with a little more acknowledgement of our inherent worth as your peers. If the world turned upside down in ten years and you (SWAPA pilots) found yourself at auction due to unforeseen circumstances, would you only be worth a staple at whatever airline had enough money to buy you at that moment in history? Or would you, god forbid, think that maybe you were worth better than that?

People have relentlessly harped on Republic pilots on this forum. ‘Quit accepting Wal-Mart wages to fly a mainline aircraft’, ‘Quit selling yourself out just to have a job’, or my favorite ‘Stand up for yourself, and demand fair treatment, for the good of ALL pilots in this industry’. And then a few lines down, that same person will say that FAPA not bending over and taking a staple was the worst decision in Airline history.

The sad part is FAPA could care less. Talk about selling out your own brothers.

Funny you should put it that way – FAPA ‘could’ care less. They could have cared a whole lot less and simply refused to fight for what we are worth. Contrary to what you believe, accepting your staple is the only way they could be accused of selling me out.

I know that there are a lot of FAPA pilots that disagree. For the most part, they are the ones who complain about everything. The princesses like AnimalTale who ride around in SW jumpseats and tell them how badly they wish they could have gotten a staple. And can I shine your shoes for you while I’m at it? Have a little pride. And then there are those who were behind FAPA in the beginning, but now that the horizon is cloudy for whatever reason, they are suddenly transformed into sniveling little turncoats. Okay…now can I take the staple? Is there anything less deserving of respect than a Monday morning quarterback? The Jay Cutler’s of the FAPA ranks. When the going gets tough, the tough start whining.

The bottom line: I am worth better than a staple. Yesterday, today and tomorrow. I, (with FAPA’s help) am fighting the only battle available to me at present to preserve the integrity of this industry. Even if my new company goes out of business tomorrow, I will still be worth more than a staple. No matter what happens now, or twenty years down the road, I am still worth more than a staple. Sure, I would have made a lot more than Wal-Mart wages, but at what cost to my integrity, or the integrity of the industry? Wouldn’t I then be just as guilty of ‘selling myself out just to have a job’. Call me idealistic… just don’t call me anybody’s b!tch.

 

[Cardinal]

Well said arjay.

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

Arjayeffo, just wandering. How is it working out for you now? Didn't F9 start with a staple with the RAH?

 

[SB Diver]

We can all agree to disagree on many parts of this, but one thing I think we all feel is true: both sides are glad this deal didn't go through.

 

[arjayeffo]

Arjayeffo, just wandering. How is it working out for you now? Didn't F9 start with a staple with the RAH?

Wandering and posting at the same time - that must be a good wifi signal. Our starting position of a staple with RAH is every bit as unreachable as our opening offer with SWAPA was. Once again, its how negotiations begin, with the promise (at least in the RAH case) of meeting somewhere in the middle. Go back and read Einstein - I actually said I agreed with SWAPA making their staple offer.

As for how things are working out for me now, I hate to break it to you but I get three raises (albeit two are snapback) this year and we're adding aircraft. And the fact that an actual ISL is still a long way off regardless of when the list itself is actually published. Even if I were the type to say 'what if' as opposed to moving forward, I won't be able to make that call until we see how the Airtran guys actually end up. There are more than a few of you out there who are secretly hoping that GK plays that 'gotta preserve the culture' card one more time.

 

[Dolce]

RJ,
SWAPA had to have a staple because any SLI would have to be put to a vote...per our constitution which wasn't going to happen in 5 hours or even 5 days when it was put to the pilots in the first place! SWA/GK knew this because SWAPA communicated this problem at the onset. FAPA couldn't meet til the 11th hour so there was no chance in hell to work this out even with SWAPA repeatedly stating a reason for the staple. It was a no win for both sides.
When we settled for our TA2, I asked my other rep about certain language regarding purchasing another carrier. Asked specifically if there was an airline in mind and he said there was one in DEN we wouldn't let a "competitor" purchase. Pretty easy to figure that out...right? When did SWA put in a bid for F9...something like a week before competing bids had to be accomplished. You don't think SWA/GK knew the constraints of SWAPA when he laid this in the pilots laps? My conspiracy theory is he has no intent because the only other bid was from a "non-competitor" so no need to overbid for F9 after seeing the real numbers. Just saying it's kind of funny how it all played out. RAH gets F9 and SWAs pilots get the blame for the purchase falling through! I'll restate SWA/GK didn't bother to
consult the pilots the second time around did he? If he really wanted to have RAH he would have let the unions/arbitrator work it out after the fact.

 

[vixin]

Who cares about what happened to Frontier? Its over let it die already. They have their own issues now, let them deal with those. SWAPA has its own, maybe you should be more focused on those.

 

[arjayeffo]

Dolce, we agree on most things. Except that I have never heard that it was FAPA that wouldn't start negotiating until there were only 5 hours left. Source?

The only thing I was trying to demonstrate, with far too many words as usual... is that there was no actual negotiations going on. There are lots of voices saying that we didn't negotiate in good faith, or that FAPA ignored attempts to negotiate later in the process. There were no negotiations taking place, period.

Neogtiation = "give and take"
SWAPA to FAPA = "take it or leave it"

So be it, as I said, I don't blame you for taking that stance. I just wish people would stop blaming FAPA for taking the stance they did. All the trouble started when we actually had the nads to 'leave it'. Like SB Diver said, if we all were happy with the fact that this didn't go through, we wouldn't still be talking about it a year and a half later. (Hint: Its hardly ever a FAPA pilot who brings it up in the first place...) We would actually be able to carry on a thread about Republic without it inevitably turning into the same old pissing match with SWA egos butting in to tell us all how much we wish we could have a mulligan, or how we should be moaning about the fact that we didn't get molested into the greatest carrier in the free world. Under the right circumstances, I would have given up my sidestick and tray table. But the deal wasn't right for either of us. Can't it be as simple as that?

 

[Dolce]

Vixin,
I'm not worried because I put my faith in SWAPAs leadership and trip pull junkies to protect my seat position and relative seniority! I mean our M&A guys backgrounds and experience havent been overstated by SWAPA and they are the smartest men in the room...are they not? If everything works out, I'll be chunking gear for AAI captain whose DOH is 5 yrs junior to mine! If that isn't such a sweet deal I don't know what else could possibly be! By the way, don't tell me to talk to my reps because I do it repeatedly and I come back feeling as if I just talked to an amateur drunk off of self-perceived importance.

D

 

[Dolce]

RJ,
Something about the FAPA president tied to the board in regard to discussions relating to creditors? He couldn't get free from meeting in Washington(?) and get the MEC together for face-to-face, so a teleconference took place at the last minute. I believe everyone was played by certain entities on both sides. How this relates to the here and now is always relevant...just my opinion though?

D

 

[arjayeffo]

Again, by your own admission and according to the rep you quoted in your first post, SWAPA didn't have the time, power, or intention to offer anything but a staple. So how can your rep (or anyone for that matter) contend that we weren't willing to negotiate - either during the five hours or afterward? Unless by 'failure to negotiate', what you really mean is 'failure to acquiesce'?
You may be right that there are things that I have been misled on, but that kind of blatant double talk reeks of damage control to me.

On a completely separate note, a sincere thank you for your service. I can only dream of seeing the world like you have.

 

[StaySeated]

That's because one of FAPA's MEC members was an ex-SWA employee who was terminated in the 80's, he would not be allowed to return. So he pushed his agenda so that he could stay Captain till 65 at Frontier. I got that from a guy who knows a guy.

My U2 brother speaks the truth. That is exactly how it went down. The sad part is FAPA could care less. Talk about selling out your own brothers.

You guys have me seriously concerned about your mental abilities. These comments are bordering on insane.

If I told you that fire is hot, and water is wet, you would still disagree.

Some of you make the group over at the "Peoples Temple" look like they lack commitment.

 

[Dolce]

RJ,
I gave how this abortion went down. Read the post slowly...SWAPAs constitution wouldn't allow for a SLI without a membership vote...hence staple was the only option with the time constraints because the deal had to be completed by midnight the day both unions finally met. If they did agree to an SLI without our approval, the membership would have their a$$es in court and won in a heartbeat. Hence, benefits and pay protection/big effing raises gone. Good luck at RAH because things may not go how you expect at RAH.

D