Renewing my CFI?

[avbug]

There are many interesting ideas here, every one of which is completely incorrect except for Bobby and Midlife. They are both accurate in their statements.

Seeking advice or any sort of interpretation at the FSDO level is folly and an exercise in futility. The FSDO level is not authorized to provide this information, and is very often misinformed. Seeking this advice from a designated examiner is one step worse...don't waste your time.

If your instructor certificate has expired, the only legal way in which to proceed is reinstatement. This requires a practical test. You may take the practical test for any rating attached to your flight instructor certificate, or you may take the practical for a new rating. Adding a new category such as helicopter, for example.

If you hold multiple ratings, you do NOT need to take the practical test for each rating. Only one. If you are an instructor in airplanes, gliders, and helicopters, you may take the practical test in any one of them.

 

[A Squared]

Folks, the CFI-BFR question was answered correctly by the first respondant (midlifeflyer) The rest who weighed in on the question (CitationLover, stlpilot, and Toy Soldier) are wrong.

Look, this question gets asked over and over, and the answer never changes, a CFI ride does *not* equal a BFR.

The short explanation: FAA legal counsel has issued a letter of interpretation stating that a CFI test will not fulfill the need for a BFR. They say no, they make the rules.


Slightly longer explanation: Mark already posted this, but apparently not everyone was paying attention. 61.56(d) specifies a *pilot*certificate rating or operating privelige. Is your instructor certificate a pilot certificate? Can you legally pilot an airplane with just your instructor certificate? no. If it's not a pilot certificate, it doesn't satisfy 61.56(d)

I don't have time to dig out the Letter of Interpretation right now, but it's been posted countless times. Do a search

I second what Avbug says about polling FSDOs. It really doesn't matter that 8 out of 10 FSDO employees agree on a legal matter, thier opinion is completely irrelevant and very likely incorrect. The opinion that matters is FAA legal counsel.

 

[justmeinmsp]

So, my CFI-CFII is expired, are you saying that if I get an MEI added(I don't have it now) that will reinstate my CFI-II?

 

[avbug]

Justmeinmsp,

Your CFI-CFII didn't just expire, because you don't have one; there's no such thing. You hold a flight instructor certificate. That expired. The "CFII" denotes a rating on that certificate. That didn't expire, but the certificate did.

This may seem splitting hairs, but it's not. It's the certificate that's expired. You may reinstate it by sucessfully passing the practical test for any rating appended to that certificate, or by passing the practical test for a new rating to be added to that certificate.

In answer to your question, then, by adding a multi engine rating to your flight instructor certificate, you reinstate the certificate. When you reinstate the certificate, you reinstate it in full, to include any ratings that are on that certificate.

For example, if you held a "CFII" and held glider and rotorcraft privileges on your flight instructor certificate, you may add the multi engine privileges in an airplane and reinstate all of them...glider, helicopter, all of it. These are all ratings on one certificate, and it's the certificate you're reinstating. By adding another rating, you reinstate all the ratings, because they're already on the certificate. You needn't reinstate separate ratings.

You would not, for example, need to take separate practical tests in gliders and helicopters...it all comes back to life again, is reinstated as one big ball of wax, by adding the rating, or passing the practical test for any rating you already hold on that certificate. If you take the practical test for reinstatement in a helicopter, and you hold glider and airplane privileges, then you get those back too...no need to take a ride in a glider or airplane, and so on.

As for the previous questions regarding flight reviews, A Squared is correct. To clarify that, renewal of a flight instructor certificate will count for the one hour of ground training required for the flight review, as specified in 14 CFR 61.56(f). It should be noted that this applies to the renewal of a current flight instructor certificate, not the reinstatement of an expired flight instructor certificate.

The wisest thing to do in the case of compliance with 61.56 for the purposes of obtaining credit for a flight review, is to request a specific endorsement from the examiner showing that you have completed a flight review. Do not simply try to fiat this by making reference to your practical test, because it doesn't count. Get an endorsement showing completion of a flight review, by the examiner or inspector providing your practical test, and then you are fully covered. Most examiners or inspectors should have no problem providing this endorsement at the same time you complete your practical test.

Again, note that this is a separate, specific endorsement showing that you have completed a flight review. This endorsement is separate, and over and above any other paperwork you receive from the examiner or inspector.

 

[Toy Soldier]

Here is what the AOPA interpretation has to say about it. This information is made available to AOPA members in the "members only" section.

AOPA quote
Alternatives to the Flight Review
A Flight Review is not required if the pilot completed within the 24 calendar month period:
1. any phase of the "wings" program
2. received a new certificate (private, commercial, ATP and CFI)
3. received a new rating (instrument, multi-engine, glider)
4. flies for a Part 121 (Air Carrier) or 135 (Air Taxi) operation and satisfied the appropriate proficiency checks

The following ONLY applies to someone that has renewed their certificate by doing the on-line courses, NAFI Master CFI program, flight instructor refresher clinics, etc. NO FLIGHT is required using these CFI renewal techniques - therefore, the following statement applies...

AOPA quote
Current flight instructors who renew their CFI certificate by attending a flight instructor refresher clinic need not complete the one hour of ground, but must complete the minimum one hour flight.

 

[avbug]

The information is also clearly printed in the regulation.

To sum that up: renewal of the flight instructor certificate does not take the place of a flight review, but as previously stated, does take the place of an hour of ground in credit toward the flight review as stated in 14 CFR 61.56(f).

No joining AOPA required.

You stated that

Current flight instructors who renew their CFI certificate by attending a flight instructor refresher clinic need not complete the one hour of ground, but must complete the minimum one hour flight.

This is correct, however, you incorrectly stated that

ONLY applies to someone that has renewed their certificate by doing the on-line courses, NAFI Master CFI program, flight instructor refresher clinics, etc.

This is not the case. The error is in the use of the word "only." Renewal of a flight instructor certificate counts for the hour of ground required by 61.56...but there are more ways to renew a flight instructor certificate than simply a clinic, an on-line course, r the NAFI master cfi program. 61.56(f) refers us to 61.197, which also includes passage of a practical test, and renewal by presentation of a successful student pass record.

 

[Toy Soldier]

Avbug

Yes, you are right about not having to join AOPA to read the reg on needing the one hour of flight if you "renewed" the CFI ticket.

However, The confusion in the earler posts was relating to taking a CFI ride and having it count towards the BFR.

Original post by A Squared
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Look, this question gets asked over and over, and the answer never changes, a CFI ride does *not* equal a BFR.
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AOPA's quote differs...

AOPA Quote
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Alternatives to the Flight Review
2. received a new certificate (private, commercial, ATP and CFI)
-------------------------------------------------------------------

The operative word here is "new", not renewed. If the ticket is new, then no BFR is required. If the ticket is renewed, then one hour of flight is required. Unless it was "renewed" via a checkride.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But are we talking about the same thing?

 

[justmeinmsp]

Thanks for the clarification Avbug.

 

[A Squared]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

You're wrong, you seem particularly uninterested in being corrected. I'll try one more time.

We are not talking about a renewal by a seminar or by instructional record, or anything else. Obviously that wouldn't satisfy the requirement for a BFR

Yes, we are talking about the initial issue of a Fiight instructor certificate as the result of a successful checkride. No, it will not take the place of a BFR.

Once again, a flight instructor certificate is not a pilot certificate, 61.56(d) specifies a *PILOT* certificate.

Once again, the FAA's legal counsel has issued an interpretation which stated explicitly that a CFI checkride does not take the place of a BFR. I have copied the legal interpretation below.
Here's the relevant text:

"Accordingly, a CFI practical test will not per se fulfill the flight review requirement."

The AOPA website is obviously incorrect. Look at it this way; AOPA takes your money and gives you little stickers to go in your car window. They say that a CFI ride counts as a BFR.


FAA legal counsel takes your certificate and gives you suspensions. They say that a CFI ride does not as a BFR.

Who does it make more sense to believe? AOPA or the FAA?

Think about it for a minute. The answer will come to you






1 Aviation Plaza
Room 561
Jamaica, NY 11434

RE: Interpretation of FAR 61.56(d)

Dear Mr. Dennstaedt:

This is in response to your letter dated August 25, 2001, wherein you ask whether an airman can satisfy the flight review requirement under 14 C.F.R. (Federal Aviation Regulation [FAR]) 61.56 by passing a practical test to become a certified flight instructor (CFI), as required by FAR 61.183.

Under FAR 61.56(c)(1), one may not act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft unless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, he has "accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor." Under FAR 61.56(c)(2), the airman must receive a logbook endorsement from the authorized instructor certifying that he has satisfactorily completed the review. Under FAR 61.56(a), a flight review must include: (1) a review of the current general operating and flight rules of Part 91; and (2) a review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate.

Under FAR 61.56(d), however, the flight review requirement of FAR 61.56(c)(1) does not apply to one who has "passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate rating, or operating privilege."

The issue you raise is whether passing a practical test to become a CFI can fall within the exception to the flight review requirement that is provided by FAR 61.56(d). Under FAR 183(h), to be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating, the applicant must "pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought." The FAA Practical Test Standards (PTS) for the airplane flight instructor examiner (sic) requires that the examiner ensure that the flight instructor applicant has the "ability to perform the procedures and maneuvers included in the standards to at least the commercial pilot skill level."

Thus, the instructor has broad discretion in conducting a flight review. A CFI practical test encompasses the demonstration of various basic maneuvers that an instructor is likely to cover in a flight review. Incorporating a flight review into the CFI practical test could be accomplished, therefore, with little, if any difficulty.

Accordingly, a CFI practical test will not per se fulfill the flight review requirement. A practical test for a CFI rating under FAR 61.183, taken within 24 months of a prior flight review, can readily meet the flight review requirement of FAR 61.56(d), however, if the examiner is satisfied that a flight review endorsement can be given. To ensure that the CFI applicant gets credit for successful completion of the flight review, however, he or she should ask the examiner to conduct the CFI oral and practical test so as to satisfy the flight review requirements as well, and to make a logbook endorsement for the flight review upon completion of the examination.

If you have additional inquiries, please contact Zachary M. Berman of this office at (718) 553-3258.

Sincerely,


Loretta E. Alkalay

 

[Toy Soldier]

A Squared

Now that's THE WAY to do business! Post the "book answer"!

I don't mind being "corrected". It's not about me being right - it's about me having the correct answer.

It also appears that there is some gray area. It seems like the CFI ride can count as a BFR - but there is some additional effort required to meet the requirement. It's not cut and dry like some thought it was.

Thanks for the copy of the letter. It helps greatly!