Regulation, anyone?

[CopilotDoug]

It's my opinion that the airline industry will not be able to fairly compensate its pilots under the current mis-management teams. Our Unions can do little but stand by the way side and hope for profitability to return. I think measures need to be taken to begin re-regulating the industry. I think it's the only way to smooth out the ebb and flow industry wide pattern. It's rediculous when someone can fly from Baltimore to Burbank on Southwest for $159!!! This business model is backasswards!!! The majority of people cannot drive across the country that cheaply. Flying is a luxury. If you can't wait 3-4 days to drive across the country (one way) then you'll have to pay for the service of speed.

 

[AirCanon04]

Supply and Demand.

 

[Tarzan]

If you work for a regional, you can kiss your job good bye if regulation returns.

Prices will go through the roof and then only the evil wealthy will be able to afford a ticket. Better be careful what you wish for.

 

[PCL_128]

It's my opinion that the airline industry will not be able to fairly compensate its pilots under the current mis-management teams. Our Unions can do little but stand by the way side and hope for profitability to return. I think measures need to be taken to begin re-regulating the industry. I think it's the only way to smooth out the ebb and flow industry wide pattern. It's rediculous when someone can fly from Baltimore to Burbank on Southwest for $159!!! This business model is backasswards!!! The majority of people cannot drive across the country that cheaply. Flying is a luxury. If you can't wait 3-4 days to drive across the country (one way) then you'll have to pay for the service of speed.

Hey, for once we agree!

 

[jonjuan]

It's my opinion that the airline industry will not be able to fairly compensate its pilots under the current mis-management teams. Our Unions can do little but stand by the way side and hope for profitability to return. I think measures need to be taken to begin re-regulating the industry. I think it's the only way to smooth out the ebb and flow industry wide pattern. It's rediculous when someone can fly from Baltimore to Burbank on Southwest for $159!!! This business model is backasswards!!! The majority of people cannot drive across the country that cheaply. Flying is a luxury. If you can't wait 3-4 days to drive across the country (one way) then you'll have to pay for the service of speed.

And yet WN makes money and her pilots are compensated very well. The WN business model is the most studied in business schools across the country, in any industry. Why is this "rediculous?" It is simple supply and demand. If this job sucked, the pay would be better.

 

[GogglesPisano]

This is a pipe dream. Why would the public care about pilot compensation (or anyone's compensation for that matter -- other than the egregious salaries paid to CEO's?) Deregulation has benefited everyone but airline labor. Airfares have never been lower.

Not to mention deregulation has allowed the airline industry (and the number of airlines, and the number of pilot jobs) to grow. If the industry had never been deregulated half of us would never have seen the insid of a cockpit.

 

[gator_hater]

It's rediculous when someone can fly from Baltimore to Burbank on Southwest for $159!!! This business model is backasswards!!! The majority of people cannot drive across the country that cheaply.

Drive?? Hell, you can't hitch hike for less than that.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

And yet WN makes money and her pilots are compensated very well. The WN business model is the most studied in business schools across the country, in any industry. Why is this "rediculous?" It is simple supply and demand. If this job sucked, the pay would be better.

Wrong, SWA are getting a screw job on their pay rates. Their productivity is at least 3-5 times more as compared to a legacy pilot. They should be making way more than they are right now. However, why do you think management is their friend...............they don't want the pilot rocking the boat.

 

[freighthumper]

It's my opinion that the airline industry will not be able to fairly compensate its pilots under the current mis-management teams. Our Unions can do little but stand by the way side and hope for profitability to return. I think measures need to be taken to begin re-regulating the industry. I think it's the only way to smooth out the ebb and flow industry wide pattern. It's rediculous when someone can fly from Baltimore to Burbank on Southwest for $159!!! This business model is backasswards!!! The majority of people cannot drive across the country that cheaply. Flying is a luxury. If you can't wait 3-4 days to drive across the country (one way) then you'll have to pay for the service of speed.

Yes!!! and while we re regulate the airline industry, we can switch over to communisim too. Then we can all have health care, and close the gap between the rich and the poor..

I wish I could wake up tomorrow and think things were that simple.

 

[XJohXJ]

Yes!!! and while we re regulate the airline industry, we can switch over to communisim too. Then we can all have health care, and close the gap between the rich and the poor..

I wish I could wake up tomorrow and think things were that simple.

Ah yes, that old saw: If it's not bloodlusty-take-no-prisoners-f#ck-everyone-but-me-completely-lawless-unfettered-might-makes-right-capitalism, it must be communism. Oh my god! Red dawn! What are we gonna do? Mr. Bush help us!!!!

 

[PCL_128]

Yes!!! and while we re regulate the airline industry, we can switch over to communisim too. Then we can all have health care, and close the gap between the rich and the poor..

I wish I could wake up tomorrow and think things were that simple.

Why must it be one or the other to some of you guys? Can't you see a middle ground? Regulation of certain industries does not equal communism.

 

[rickair7777]

And yet WN makes money and her pilots are compensated very well. The WN business model is the most studied in business schools across the country, in any industry. Why is this "rediculous?" It is simple supply and demand. If this job sucked, the pay would be better.

The WN model consists of two key elements:

1) Cherry-pick the most lucrative routes.
2) Execute those routes with an aggressive efficiency emphasis.

The problem is that in order for this to work, the routes selected must be suitable for item 2)...this leaves many cities, including all of the international destinations and all small cities, with no service.

Recognize SW for what it is, and understand that it is a not a model for all future air travel.

 

[VABB]

It's my opinion that the airline industry will not be able to fairly compensate its pilots under the current mis-management teams. Our Unions can do little but stand by the way side and hope for profitability to return. I think measures need to be taken to begin re-regulating the industry. I think it's the only way to smooth out the ebb and flow industry wide pattern. It's rediculous when someone can fly from Baltimore to Burbank on Southwest for $159!!! This business model is backasswards!!! The majority of people cannot drive across the country that cheaply. Flying is a luxury. If you can't wait 3-4 days to drive across the country (one way) then you'll have to pay for the service of speed.

Do you see the sentence highlighted above? Don't blame management, blame the pilots. As long as there are people willing to fly jets for nothing more than peanuts AND with a "just-happy-to-be-here" attitude, you will not see any upward movement in compensation.

If the airlines were regulated, fares would go up and the profits would probably increase. However, one's compensation is not directly tied to a company's profits. You get what you negotiate for, not what you think you are worth.

 

[suupah]

reregulation wouldn't be smart but i think that national pilot unions would be great. you can't have just one but if there were just a couple and all the airlines had to hire from them based on seniority we would not be able to be pitted against eachother and airlines would have similar labor costs. that would help eliminate the cost advantage of a start up.

Who knows????

 

[172driver]

Deregulation has been tough on the airline industry, especially labor. However, I believe that the problem lies more with the bankruptcy process and the courts than the free market.

Labor has been rendered impotent by the complexity of the RLA along with the bias of the mediators. There is no reason any labor group should have to negotiate for more than a year for a new contract without being released to self help. Look at ASA for a good present day example of being completely powerless in the negotiation process.

The BK laws in this country have allowed inefficient companies to survive, thus bloating the market with too much supply and supporting their idiotic pricing schemes. If a business plan doesn't work, companies just take their losses out of the pockets of employees, creditors, and taxpayers.

The courts have also set a dangerous precedent by forbidding labor groups to withdraw their services after the imposition of wages and work rules by the company. Where are employees supposed to turn? The court allows the company to impose whatever conditions they like and labor has no power to object.

If we were truly deregulated, there would be fewer players in the game, but they would be profitable. The weaker, less efficient airlines would liquidate or be consolidated into stronger companies, reducing supply, making all others stronger and more able to set a fair price for travel. In regulation, the government propped up the airlines. Today, through BK and an unfair negotiating process, labor and creditors serve the same function.

 

[Guitar Guy]

CopilotDoug - why would re-regulation of the industry lead to a bigger paycheck for pilots or any other worker bee at the airlines? Just because the airlines might make more money, why does that mean that they'd share the windfall with the "common man"?

Maybe a federally-mandated minimum wage specifically for airline pilots is a better idea. :erm:

 

[172driver]

You get what you negotiate for, not what you think you are worth.

There are tens of thousands of pilots in this country who have not been allowed to use the leverage they have to negotiate fairly. Having a contract imposed on you by the court with no right to self help is not a negotiation, it's an ultimatum.

 

[VABB]

There are tens of thousands of pilots in this country who have not been allowed to use the leverage they have to negotiate fairly. Having a contract imposed on you by the court with no right to self help is not a negotiation, it's an ultimatum.

To the best of my knowledge, the only contracts that come to mind under this scenario are the ones at carriers who have filed chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. I say to the best of my knowledge because I am honestly not aware of any other scenario where there has been a case of the court system imposing sanctions or otherwise on the pilot group.

UPS and FedEx come to mind as two carriers who were able to negotiate their contracts without any court involvement or ultimatums from the courts. Guys can debate all day about whether or not the contracts were what the pilot groups wanted, but the fact of the matter is that both groups negotiated and voted in their current contracts. i.e., what they have is what they negotiated.

The legacy pax airlines are another story. When 4 of them filed chapter 11, all bets were off and the labor groups had a completely different animal to deal with. It's not that it was unfair, it was that the bankruptcy court was now calling the shots.

But, the unions still had some choices they could make. When the mechanics at one airline walked the picket line, ALPA could have said the pilots were going to walk too. That would have put the longevity of the carrier at risk, but it also would have given both groups a lot of leverage.

Most concessions were not just handed down from the courts either. The unions still had to vote on them, with pensions being one exception.

But in the end, supply and demand will play a huge role in salaries. As mentioned previously, there are many, many pilots who are willing to take flying jobs at very low wages and not do much about it. As long as that pipeline still exists, management is going to have a large upper-hand.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Would it be a bad thing if only half the pilots out there would have seen the inside of a cockpit if it made their jobs more stable and paid better? I don't think regulation is a be-all-end-all solution. As PCL128 said, work towards a middle ground. I am pro-pilot all the way, but it seems like the field is deffinitely leaning in favor of management. Our Unions have been rendered impotent by Bankruptcy Judges...the people with the money are making the rules here and it just seems to me that the worker will be left by the wayside. I just meant to stir the pot and get people thinking about different approaches. GuitarGuy, maybe a federally-mandated pay scale is a better idea?

 

[GogglesPisano]

Would it be a bad thing if only half the pilots out there would have seen the inside of a cockpit if it made their jobs more stable and paid better?

As long is you'll be happy in either half.

, maybe a federally-mandated pay scale is a better idea?

Again, this is a pipe dream. Why should Congress or the public care what pilots make? Lood how long it took for a raise to he Federal minimum wage.