Regional question regarding GoJet!?!?

[PCL_128]

Spoken like someone who doesnt commute to work.

I've spent the last 5 years commuting to work, genius.

 

[waterski45]

Theo is right about the people who do interviews....HR departments don't like zealots.

Waterski.....every regional pilot hired since 2001 was at the expense of another pilot group....Pot meet kettle.

A350

Yes, yes, yes...All regional jobs are at the expense of mainline jobs, and many are even at the expense of another regional (e.g. ACA and Air Wisconsin when United rebid their contract). I'll agree with you on that all night long. That is another debate. The difference with GoJet is that they exist as a separate pilot group from TSA solely to circumvent the TSA CBA and whipsaw that pilot group.

GoJet pilots always love to say how we are all "stealing" other pilots jobs, and what they are doing is nothing different. Well, it is. And to use the argument A350 does is just changing the subject. Apples and oranges.

As for the fact that people in HR departments don't like zealots, we can agree on that as well. But like I said, I'm not an ALPA zealot. I'm not an extreme or outspoken vindictive person. But I do feel (as do many others) that because of the circumstances, a pilot taking a job at GoJet is unethical. It says something about someones character.

So like I said, if you are a GoJet pilot you will be forever taking the chance that the person doing your interview will feel the same way. Why do that with your career when you could go get a job at literally any other regional airline?

 

[A350]

You may consider it apples and oranges, because that supports your arguement.

Whipsaw? Is that what you call it? I suppose the myriad of regional airlines, all fighting for more flying and larger equipment, helped the many mainline UNION pilots in their quest to keep their jobs and careers after 9/11 right?

It is a convenient fact that it was given away... and I won't debate the fact. However, I voted NO for every contract agreement that gave an inch on our scope because you can see the result. Many others did as well.

Further, the arguement that going to GoJets is harmful to your career doesn't hold water. You all want to hold grudges and punish those you feel responsible for your "lot in life"....but noone wants to take responsiblility for their own actions and what it has done to the profession.

Ethics are a slippery slope. So is character.

A350

 

[theo]

Yes, yes, yes...All regional jobs are at the expense of mainline jobs, and many are even at the expense of another regional (e.g. ACA and Air Wisconsin when United rebid their contract). I'll agree with you on that all night long. That is another debate. The difference with GoJet is that they exist as a separate pilot group from TSA solely to circumvent the TSA CBA and whipsaw that pilot group.

GoJet pilots always love to say how we are all "stealing" other pilots jobs, and what they are doing is nothing different. Well, it is. And to use the argument A350 does is just changing the subject. Apples and oranges.

As for the fact that people in HR departments don't like zealots, we can agree on that as well. But like I said, I'm not an ALPA zealot. I'm not an extreme or outspoken vindictive person. But I do feel (as do many others) that because of the circumstances, a pilot taking a job at GoJet is unethical. It says something about someones character.

So like I said, if you are a GoJet pilot you will be forever taking the chance that the person doing your interview will feel the same way. Why do that with your career when you could go get a job at literally any other regional airline?

I don't know if you are or are not a zealot...I do know that very few if any airlines have just one person doing the hiring, I also know that in the group interview where each candidate is discussed that you will have to explain why all the others on a hiring committee will be looking for you to explain why you feel differently than the group. I believe you won't even get away with the first anti GoJet opinion before you are no longer a member of the hiring committee.
My opinion is you are a zealot because you still do not repeat the FACTS accurately about the GoJet situation. TSA pilots could have had the flying...they voted to reject it. They didnt like the deal that ALPA negotiated so they said no. I dont have a problem with anyone voting down a deal if they dont like it. That is what happened. By the way I seem to remember it being written on this board that ALPA National actually recommended that the TSA pilots vote for the Gojet flying but the local TSA MEC would not send the letter to the pilots, rather if I remember correctly, they told the pilots to vote it down and they would then negotiate a better deal. They were wrong obviously and the TSA pilots suffer for it. This is a case where ALPA blew it and in an effort to cover themselves from blame they have tried to villify a group of pilots who work at GoJet to cover up their own blunders. After all how does it look to Skywest pilots and others when they see how ineffective ALPA leadership has proven to be in this and many other situations over the years? That is why the zealots have made it their mission to try and change the facts to make someone else responsible for their screwups, now that is a perfect example of an ALPA zealot's ethics!

 

[waterski45]

My opinion is you are a zealot because you still do not repeat the FACTS accurately about the GoJet situation. TSA pilots could have had the flying...they voted to reject it.

Funny...I seem to remember GoJet being fully operational and staffed before the TSA pilot group was offered the scope for flying. Then management decided to come "negotiate" with TSA pilots to do the flying. The result was a bad deal, and I am still happy that I did not vote for it.

Regardless of the outcome of the vote, the FACT that it was created as a separate group and then used as leverage when negotiating with the union makes it a whipsaw. Any pilot supporting that by going to work there is willing letting himself be used against the TSA pilot group, which I think is wrong.

theo, you can tell yourself whatever you want to make yourself sleep better at night with the decision you made to work there. We can go back and forth all day long on your point of view vs. mine. The FACT is that in the court of public opinion most people seem to view the situation the same way as me.

 

[say again]

Funny...I seem to remember GoJet being fully operational and staffed before the TSA pilot group was offered the scope for flying. Then management decided to come "negotiate" with TSA pilots to do the flying. The result was a bad deal, and I am still happy that I did not vote for it.

Regardless of the outcome of the vote, the FACT that it was created as a separate group and then used as leverage when negotiating with the union makes it a whipsaw. Any pilot supporting that by going to work there is willing letting himself be used against the TSA pilot group, which I think is wrong.

theo, you can tell yourself whatever you want to make yourself sleep better at night with the decision you made to work there. We can go back and forth all day long on your point of view vs. mine. The FACT is that in the court of public opinion most people seem to view the situation the same way as me.

A vast majority do!

 

[theo]

Funny...I seem to remember GoJet being fully operational and staffed before the TSA pilot group was offered the scope for flying. Then management decided to come "negotiate" with TSA pilots to do the flying. The result was a bad deal, and I am still happy that I did not vote for it.

Regardless of the outcome of the vote, the FACT that it was created as a separate group and then used as leverage when negotiating with the union makes it a whipsaw. Any pilot supporting that by going to work there is willing letting himself be used against the TSA pilot group, which I think is wrong.

theo, you can tell yourself whatever you want to make yourself sleep better at night with the decision you made to work there. We can go back and forth all day long on your point of view vs. mine. The FACT is that in the court of public opinion most people seem to view the situation the same way as me.

Once again you are wrong. One, I don't fly there because I already had a job. Two, only the union zealots say they did something wrong, (to cover for their own mistakes), the rest of the world (including pilots) doesnt give a rats ass about GoJet or any other Regional Airline pilot group.

I will agree that you don't like it....I will also agree that the most vocal on this board share your view. But this Flight Info group is actually quite small and for the most part heavily supports ALPA. But in the interest of balance. I am here representing the rest of the airline population that says GoJet is just like any other Regional, a place to build time and move on to other better airlines in the future. That appears to be what they are doing based upon my conversations with them, and the vindictivness seen on this board is not having any impact on them whatsoever. So feel how you wish, just dont insinuate that it some how is affecting them today, tomorrow, or ever.

 

[subin30]

Once again you are wrong. One, I don't fly there because I already had a job. Two, only the union zealots say they did something wrong, (to cover for their own mistakes), the rest of the world (including pilots) doesnt give a rats ass about GoJet or any other Regional Airline pilot group.

I will agree that you don't like it....I will also agree that the most vocal on this board share your view. But this Flight Info group is actually quite small and for the most part heavily supports ALPA. But in the interest of balance. I am here representing the rest of the airline population that says GoJet is just like any other Regional, a place to build time and move on to other better airlines in the future. That appears to be what they are doing based upon my conversations with them, and the vindictivness seen on this board is not having any impact on them whatsoever. So feel how you wish, just dont insinuate that it some how is affecting them today, tomorrow, or ever.

Ok RETARD! You dont know sh!t... you aint representing sh!t either. and the rest of the airline population would like to ask you to shut you SH!T.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Ok RETARD! You dont know sh!t... you aint representing sh!t either. and the rest of the airline population would like to ask you to shut you SH!T.

Agreed!

 

[theo]

Ok RETARD! You dont know sh!t... you aint representing sh!t either. and the rest of the airline population would like to ask you to shut you SH!T.

Classic ALPA zealot retort.....good one!

 

[DIZNYTWNPLT]

Fun to watch....

As an interested outside observer with no reason to worry one way or the other in this debate, I would say the exchange between THEO, A350, and WATERSKI has been the most mature and respectful to date....nice job. It is possible to disagree without having to use those funny little @#$% symbols. I knew there were "grown-ups" around. Keep having fun kiddies....gives the rest of us something to do while waiting around the airport or hotel.

Now, having stood on my box, I will make the following childish comment:

Running for cover from the crazy pelting that is sure to follow!

 

[ualdriver]

I'd have to disagree with those who think that the guys at the "majors" don't know about the GoJet story. There are MANY guys who know exactly what transpired between TransStates, GoJets, and their piece of crap CEO. I educate almost every First Officer I fly with when I hear that "gateway" call sign. And personally, I wouldn't want GoJets on my resume. Yeah, some of them will get hired elsewhere and slip through the cracks, but I'd hate to be a GoJet guy wondering if I didn't get hired at Airline X because I had interviewed poorly, or because the pilot on the other side of the table knew about the union/non-union whipsaw screwjob that took place over there. There's just too many people competiting for the "good" jobs to risk having GoJets on one's resume. I wouldn't hire those guys, but I do feel bad for the young guys that took jobs over there and didn't know any better.

 

[BoilerUP]

I wouldn't hire those guys, but I do feel bad for the young guys that took jobs over there and didn't know any better.

Some of those young guys *did* know better and chose GoJet anyway.

 

[ualdriver]

Some of those young guys *did* know better and chose GoJet anyway.

Then I don't feel bad for them I made that statement because occasionally UAL makes us deadhead on UA Express. We were DH'ing on a GoJet flight and the First Officer was a very young guy (maybe 22) with a "Purdue" lanyard around his neck holding his ID. Granted neither my F/O or I would give them the time of day, but if he got "recuited" by GoJets straight out of collge, it's very possible that he had no idea what he got himself into for possibly the rest of his career. I make sure that my University's Career Center is aware of airlines such as GoJets so that their students can make an informed decision before choosing to go there, but some Universities may not have a clue and unknowingly put a blemish on their students' resumes that they might not want.

 

[BoilerUP]

Then I don't feel bad for them I made that statement because occasionally UAL makes us deadhead on UA Express. We were DH'ing on a GoJet flight and the First Officer was a very young guy (maybe 22) with a "Purdue" lanyard around his neck holding his ID.

I know the guy you are talking about.

He's a pretty good guy....but he knew exactly what he was getting himself into; myself and quite a few friends made sure of that.

 

[ualdriver]

I know the guy you are talking about.

He's a pretty good guy....but he knew exactly what he was getting himself into; myself and quite a few friends made sure of that.

Well, it must be a small world over there, then. What exactly was his logic in taking a job at GoJets when everyone else was hiring? Seems kind of stupid, especially when you have friends in the business warning you.

 

[Hulk Hogan]

Theo is right about the people who do interviews....HR departments don't like zealots.

Waterski.....every regional pilot hired since 2001 was at the expense of another pilot group....Pot meet kettle.

A350

apple meet orange

 

[IdRtherBsailing]

I'd have to disagree with those who think that the guys at the "majors" don't know about the GoJet story. There are MANY guys who know exactly what transpired between TransStates, GoJets, and their piece of crap CEO. I educate almost every First Officer I fly with when I hear that "gateway" call sign. And personally, I wouldn't want GoJets on my resume. Yeah, some of them will get hired elsewhere and slip through the cracks, but I'd hate to be a GoJet guy wondering if I didn't get hired at Airline X because I had interviewed poorly, or because the pilot on the other side of the table knew about the union/non-union whipsaw screwjob that took place over there. There's just too many people competiting for the "good" jobs to risk having GoJets on one's resume. I wouldn't hire those guys, but I do feel bad for the young guys that took jobs over there and didn't know any better.

Thank you for your support in the matter. I'll admit that it does get around that mainline folks do not know or care about the whole Go Jet thing. I am not at the regionals anymore but I am glad you take the time to educate your peers and future aviators at the university level. There is no reason to go to a place like that when every regional airline on this planet are having staffing problems. I personally feel that going into an RJ right out of college is not the best thing. Thats just me. Instruct,tow banners, fly 135, night freight, whatever. You will learn a lot and probably get the crap scared out of you a few times. Then take that experience to fly around a $20-$40 million dollar jet full of pax. You will also gain a greater appreciation for the industry and have a lot of fun in the process.

 

[Dharmesh1231]

Then I don't feel bad for them I made that statement because occasionally UAL makes us deadhead on UA Express. We were DH'ing on a GoJet flight and the First Officer was a very young guy (maybe 22) with a "Purdue" lanyard around his neck holding his ID. Granted neither my F/O or I would give them the time of day, but if he got "recuited" by GoJets straight out of collge, it's very possible that he had no idea what he got himself into for possibly the rest of his career. I make sure that my University's Career Center is aware of airlines such as GoJets so that their students can make an informed decision before choosing to go there, but some Universities may not have a clue and unknowingly put a blemish on their students' resumes that they might not want.

UAL driver.....I see your point on making sure that students don't make the wrong decesion coming out of the Univ's on choosing GoJets. Howver in a business stand point the Univ's are not going to do that....because their funding for a program gets better if they can place students as pilots with the airlines. They don't care if that's GoJets or Skybus. Coz now they can put a full page ad in a magazine about all their placements at the Univ and attract more students.

 

[ualdriver]

Thank you for your support in the matter. I'll admit that it does get around that mainline folks do not know or care about the whole Go Jet thing. I am not at the regionals anymore but I am glad you take the time to educate your peers and future aviators at the university level. There is no reason to go to a place like that when every regional airline on this planet are having staffing problems. I personally feel that going into an RJ right out of college is not the best thing. Thats just me. Instruct,tow banners, fly 135, night freight, whatever. You will learn a lot and probably get the crap scared out of you a few times. Then take that experience to fly around a $20-$40 million dollar jet full of pax. You will also gain a greater appreciation for the industry and have a lot of fun in the process.

I didn't mean to imply that I go to my old University and talk to their students. I don't, althought I certainly would if the need arose and the opportunity presented itself. I just make sure that my University's Career Center knows what's up with airlines like GoJet so that they can inform their students as to the possible consequences of going to work there if GoJet tries to recruit them right out of college. If someone is going to choose to take a job at GoJets with their eyes wide open- fine, it's a free country. They just need to understand that, right or wrong, that might hurt their opportunities in the future. Like I said, I don't want anything to do with those guys and there are plenty of other people who feel that way, too.

Having a group of those guys at your Union airline who are willing to undermine the Union negotiating progress, as they did at TSA, can be extremely dangerous to any unionized pilot group, in my opinion. Why take the risk that they'll do it again at your airline?

 

[acaTerry]

4 pages already...that didn't take long.

 

[Tarzan]

The argument of the regionals prospering at the expense of mainline is a weak one at best. While it is true that this has happened, most of us what to see the pendulum swing the other way.

Go Jet on the other hand was created solely to circumnavigate the CBA between TSA pilots and management. When pilots hired on there either from TSA or elsewhere, they were complicit in the problem. Had pilot refused to work there, the crooked, underhanded garbage that is going on right now across the nation may have slowed as managers saw that the current group was buying into their little game. Unfortunately for us all, Go Jet pilots just as their precursors at Freedom, chose the less than honorable route.

As far as TSA voting on Go Jet flying... Those guys were going to have furlough protection. Most at TSA knew it was right around the corner for TSA and low and behold, they furloughed. Happily, very few returned placing TSA in dire straits,

 

[theo]

The argument of the regionals prospering at the expense of mainline is a weak one at best. While it is true that this has happened, most of us what to see the pendulum swing the other way.

Go Jet on the other hand was created solely to circumnavigate the CBA between TSA pilots and management. When pilots hired on there either from TSA or elsewhere, they were complicit in the problem. Had pilot refused to work there, the crooked, underhanded garbage that is going on right now across the nation may have slowed as managers saw that the current group was buying into their little game. Unfortunately for us all, Go Jet pilots just as their precursors at Freedom, chose the less than honorable route.

As far as TSA voting on Go Jet flying... Those guys were going to have furlough protection. Most at TSA knew it was right around the corner for TSA and low and behold, they furloughed. Happily, very few returned placing TSA in dire straits,

You say...with authority...that the sole reason to form GoJet was to circumvent theTSA CBA? I seem to recall it was actually a scope clause at AA that was the cause of the new certificate.

As for dire straits, I havent heard of TSA having operational problems like other Regional Airlines...I know they lowered their minimums, but are they cancelling flights due to crews? Actually..looking at United performance they appear to be upper tier in performance compared to other United Express carriers, what kind of dire straits are they in? Seems like your kinda overblowing the situation...sorta like an ALPA zealot would do....

 

[PCL_128]

You say...with authority...that the sole reason to form GoJet was to circumvent theTSA CBA? I seem to recall it was actually a scope clause at AA that was the cause of the new certificate.

AA scope has nothing to do with the HoJet pilots. Hulas could have just as easily created a separate certificate but kept the flying on one seniority list.

 

[A350]

PCL128 et all:

And why in the world would Hulas do that? After all, the policies and leadership from ALPA has played right into this mess. He did it because he could.....he isn't the first and he won't be the last. Remember when Uncle Frankie formed NYAir? This #$#@ is still happening and the union is powerless to stop it.

Just like the minions of management at the mainline carriers. They saw an opportunity to gut the mainline pilots contracts and at the same time hire thousands of new UNION pilots to replace them. I didn't see any tears of shame over that. Further, I didn't see any mainline guys who lost their jobs calling regional pilots scabs and scumbags.

My whole &$^$ about threads like this is that they are entirely hypocritical.

Take the GoJet pilot. I don't really care where they come from, but I dare say some of them were furloughed mainline pilots. It is really the position of the GoJet haters that this particular pilot should sit on the sideline, work at Home Depot, so another pilot (you) could gain better work rules, seniority, and pay? If this is true, where were you when their contract was being gutted and they were put on the street?

Everyone has their perspective. This happens to be mine.

A350

 

[PCL_128]

A350, we've been over this a million times. You're still comparing apples to typewriters. The mainline pilots gave up their scope. Any flying that they lost to the regionals was lost because they willfully gave it up. Not so with the TSA pilots. Their flying was flat-out stolen. They didn't choose to give it up. Big difference.

 

[Tarzan]

You say...with authority...that the sole reason to form GoJet was to circumvent theTSA CBA? I seem to recall it was actually a scope clause at AA that was the cause of the new certificate.

As for dire straits, I havent heard of TSA having operational problems like other Regional Airlines...I know they lowered their minimums, but are they cancelling flights due to crews? Actually..looking at United performance they appear to be upper tier in performance compared to other United Express carriers, what kind of dire straits are they in? Seems like your kinda overblowing the situation...sorta like an ALPA zealot would do....

As mentioned before, Hulas did what he did because he could. It worked for him. The AA scope was BS and you know it. CHQ has American feed out STL and flies 70 seat jets for Delta and United on the Shuttle and Republic ticket. So the argument doesn't hold much water.

So far as the the difficulties for TSA, they may not be there now but they were in trouble when they recalled the guys furloughed and only a few took the recall. Most had found jobs elsewhere. So yes, they were in trouble and canceling flights at that point.

Nice to toss the barbs early. I've attempted to be cordial and point to the meat of the issue. I am by no means an ALPA zealot as you so handily pointed out ( I am pretty far right on most issues). However, as companies find new ways to hose the great unwashed masses, I have leaned a little bit more toward some sort of legally binding agreements. ALPA has many faults and there is much to be improved on especially in the regional world and they do get it wrong (The Go Jet thing could have gone much better and fallen in TSA pilot's favor) but I'll still take them over nothing.

I don't hate any Go Jet pilot. But I do dislike the blatant misrepresentation of the facts about this issue. I believe what has transpired there just as with Freedom, has only hurt all of us. I honestly believe we'll see this sort of thing at mainline one day. The overall pilot group has demonstrated they are willing to stab others in the back for the extra buck an hour rather than put their time and make and extra ten bucks an hour when their time comes.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

PCL128 et all:

And why in the world would Hulas do that? After all, the policies and leadership from ALPA has played right into this mess. He did it because he could.....he isn't the first and he won't be the last. Remember when Uncle Frankie formed NYAir? This #$#@ is still happening and the union is powerless to stop it.

Just like the minions of management at the mainline carriers. They saw an opportunity to gut the mainline pilots contracts and at the same time hire thousands of new UNION pilots to replace them. I didn't see any tears of shame over that. Further, I didn't see any mainline guys who lost their jobs calling regional pilots scabs and scumbags.

My whole &$^$ about threads like this is that they are entirely hypocritical.

Take the GoJet pilot. I don't really care where they come from, but I dare say some of them were furloughed mainline pilots. It is really the position of the GoJet haters that this particular pilot should sit on the sideline, work at Home Depot, so another pilot (you) could gain better work rules, seniority, and pay? If this is true, where were you when their contract was being gutted and they were put on the street?

Everyone has their perspective. This happens to be mine.

A350

You seem to miss the fact that if pilots refused to go work for scumbag outfits like Hojets, Hulas and other management types wouldn't be able to pull off their underhanded games!!! Some of us actually bypassed the "opportunity" to stab our fellow pilots in the back by refusing to accept jobs at Eastern and UAL back when their pilots were on strike...

If we all stood together against these types of management ploys to bring down our wages and benefits, a lot more could be accomplished in improving our profession as a whole!

 

[sqwkvfr]

As mentioned before, Hulas did what he did because he could. It worked for him. The AA scope was BS and you know it. CHQ has American feed out STL and flies 70 seat jets for Delta and United on the Shuttle and Republic ticket. So the argument doesn't hold much water.

Are the Shuttle, Republic and CHQ pilots all on the same senority list?

 

[theo]

A350, we've been over this a million times. You're still comparing apples to typewriters. The mainline pilots gave up their scope. Any flying that they lost to the regionals was lost because they willfully gave it up. Not so with the TSA pilots. Their flying was flat-out stolen. They didn't choose to give it up. Big difference.

You continue to ..conveniently ....overlook the fact that the TSA pilots voted down their opportunity to do the GoJet flying....I am not sure how you can differentiate between the two situations so easily...Mainline pilots gave up some new flying opportunities because the cost to keep it was too high, and/or they chose to spend their negotiating capital on other things....TSA pilots gave up some new flying because the cost to get it was too high, and they chose to keep their negotiating capital on ....I still don't know what. The only difference I see is you benefitted from Mainline pilots decisions so, you say thats ok...but because you keep trying to hide the incompetence of ALPA officials in the Gojet case you choose to continue to spread misinformation to direct attention away from the ALPA officials who completely blew the opportunity to win the GoJet flying. You sir are being quite hypocritical in your position, as well as inaccurate with the facts.