Regional FO's Depressed

[Gulfstream 200]

What do you want to hear?

That you are an idoit for taking a $hitty job?

OK, you are an idiot.

Still depressed?

Get another job.

 

[Kaman]

.........

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I see the issue from a different angle. Most of the F/O's that I have seen moaning about still being F/O's do not have the TT to have even applied to a regional 9 or 10 years ago. And that was to fly a Dash-8!

Most of the RJ F/O's today, would still be freight dogs or CFI's in 1994.

Count your blessing that you are still flying, Last I heard there are 10,000 + Mainliners on the street, and most of them were getting paid to fly when the sniveling crowd still wasn't old enough to drive.

Complain about the money all you want, but don't bit#h about still being an F/O after 2 or 3 years. Or this will be a mighty long, and miserable career for you.

 

[satpak77]

Most of the RJ F/O's today, would still be freight dogs or CFI's in 1994.

By the way, how many current RJ F/O's are even ex-freight dogs anyway? Back in 94 to be hired at Eagle/ASA you needed 2000 and 500, with most guys being 2500/1000, all in Navajo/Baron/4XX series flying single pilot night IFR freight. How many times in your RJ have you tuned 2 VOR radials to ID a fix and then entered holding over the fix, single pilot, night, at 4000, in the soup, near KDAL, in the winter, no AP? Ever done that shroom?

What I mean is when you are hanging around friends and others who have real jobs. It is sicking how little we get paid. Everyone else is well into their lives making money, owing houses, being able to buy things they want. Meanwhile Regional FO's are scraping by.

It is ridiculous, when you can be playing a cards with a bunch of friends, look around the table and think, "wow I've got a college degree and ten of thousands of dollars in technical training, which is more than most others at the table, and I make half of what the next lowest paid guy makes."

It is a screwed up world we live.

Dude, care to define your subjective terminology? Making money? Buy things they want? You make half of what the next guy makes? What does this mean?

Bottom line, you CHOOSE this career, you paid in some form or another for your training, and now as a regional FO you are mad at the world for earning more than you? You sh1tting us? So the justification for earning XXX dollars is directly related to how much XXX dollars is expended on education and training (funded by you or spent on you)? Is that the logic you are using?

If that were true, Navy SEALS would make $1 Million a year, Lawyers would make $80,000 a year, Space Shuttle astronauts would make $5 million a year, and t1tty dancers would earn $500 a year. Ex-POW Randy Cunningham (sp?) would have unlimited earnings potential.

So it should stand to reason that since you spent (or daddy/mommy) $20,000 at SuperDuper Flight Academy and $7000 on a 737 type, that you are entitled to whatever your little heart desires right? I mean, you earned it right? So you deserve it! In life sometimes you: get what you don't deserve, you deserved something and didn't get it, and you get what you deserved.

Hold, wait wait. You say "nobody told you" about the Regional F/O "pay structure" while you were getting your ratings? Kit Darby didn't let you in on that? You never heard talk at the FBO about the job security and salary of the piloting career? Your phone has not rung with a call from the Plan-Your-Life-Career-Wizard in the sky? Mine has not either. He doesn't exist.

Sounds like you may be a little naive about this flying biz, if at 3 years as an Regional F/O (likely on an RJ, ATR's and SF-340's are dwindling in numbers), you are bitching. Trying flying Bandits (no, I dont mean a plane full of bank robbers) from KABI-KDFW 6 times a day in the Texas summer, navigating weather. Dude the airline biz is not easy place. Think you are gonna fly as F/O then "slide over" to the major in a flow-thru? Not with 2000 guys on the street in front of you, you aint. News flash: Recalls have not even begun to get begun.

That long vacation you were putting off so you could be home while the flow-thru phone call came? You can safely go on it for the next few YEARS.

Think you get hired at age 32.5 (Kit Darbys mathematically derived model which states you will be hired by a 121 carrier at 32.5 and zero days) and then enjoy a easy life, flying heavies to London or Madrid? Then retire at 60 and collect that 10 trillion dollar pension? Give me a break.

At the rate this industry is going, you are lucky to even see water cannons at age 60 and get a full retirement with medical benefits. How many guys are age 45, 50, and laid off, on the street? Say 50 and laid off from US Air, then US Air folds? Now what is this guy gonna do? What would you do?

Time to wake up pal

I leave my house, and I see illegal aliens laying sheetrock on the homes in my neighborhood, my uniform goes to a dry cleaners owned by Vietnamese, I eat lunch at a sub place owned by Italians, I put gas in my car and pay the Iranian attendant (by the way all people above speak little to zero English), and on the way to the airport, who is the beggar on the corner? Some white guy, who speaks English, his native language, and is a US Citizen, looking for a handout and bitching that he is unemployed and times are tough, no opportunities. Please Help. Its Holiday season after all. Gimme a helping hand.

YOU are in charge of YOUR life. Don't bitch or blame others because your life sucks. It is what YOU make it. Salary, "off-duty", career choice, girlfriend, alternative lifestyle, all YOUR choices.

In the end, everyone gets what they want from life.

later

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

I leave my house, and I see illegal aliens laying sheetrock on the homes in my neighborhood, my uniform goes to a dry cleaners owned by Vietnamese, I eat lunch at a sub place owned by Italians, I put gas in my car and pay the Iranian attendant (by the way all people above speak little to zero English), and on the way to the airport, who is the beggar on the corner? Some white guy, who speaks English, his native language, and is a US Citizen, looking for a handout and bitching that he is unemployed and times are tough, no opportunities. Please Help. Its Holiday season after all. Gimme a helping hand.


later

Brutal? Yes. True? Drive around town and see. Here in ATL? No question.

 

[WhiteCloud]

There ALOT of mainline pilots on the street without a flying job and it makes me sick that a small minded FO like yourself does not see that fact.

That's the airline management playbook now. Build a company and then when the wages get too high make it go bankrupt and start over again with less expensive labor. Airline flying is now a job to do for a while for fun or kicks and not really a viable career. It's only a matter of time before the profitable freight haulers get into the act. Probably not through bankruptcy but through eliminating the in house flight department and contracting it out.

 

[luftwolf]

TO ALL REGIONAL FO's.

Don't you get sick and tired of feeling like you missed the boat so to speak. What I mean is when you are hanging around friends and others who have real jobs. It is sicking how little we get paid. Everyone else is well into their lives making money, owing houses, being able to buy things they want. Meanwhile Regional FO's are scraping by.

It is ridiculous, when you can be playing a cards with a bunch of friends, look around the table and think, "wow I've got a college degree and ten of thousands of dollars in technical training, which is more than most others at the table, and I make half of what the next lowest paid guy makes."

It is a screwed up world we live.

Can anybody think of another job in this country that;
1. Basically requires a college degree
2. Thousands of dollars in technical training
3. Several Years work experience in the field
4. Starting pay around 20,000 per year, oh but wait, you generally make between 30 and 40 you next year. (woopdy doo)

I cant think of any.

I say we all just quit!

I was making between 150k to 300k annually on the last 10 years in other field, I traded it for a possible FO position with 20k salary. Why? well...this is the price I am willing to pay to achieve my dream. You gain you loss, it all depends on what you want. Never complain when you were on your dream job, let passion brings peace.

 

[pilotyip]

Cunningham was not a POW, he shot down the "bad guys" and although he did get shot down down by a SAM, he managed to eject over the Gulf of Tokin and avoid the POW thing. Stil deserves whatever you said above.

 

[shroomwell]

Relax People. Many of you like to make assumptions. Go ahead make all you want, you don't know me. It is correct life is what you make of it. And if you don't like the pay get out. I agree. My simple point is that there are no other jobs out there that require similar qualifications, and have the same pay structure. That is it. I know what the answer is, it is supply and demand, blah blah blah. I wanna know what people think we can do to change it.

Also, I don't want to hear the old argument. Well we all had to put up with low pay, and so should you. Why not try to improve the whole industry, get the 10,000 guys on the street back to work and improve all of our QOL's.

P.S. Just raise the frickin ticket prices already. You can't make money selling a product for less than it costs.

Awaiting all comments from Junior Economists.

 

[luftwolf]

Some pilots have to change their job to management from operational position, I see the problem is casued by pencil pushers running the business.

my 2 cents!

 

[Flying Dog Doc]

Shroom,

Don't feel too badly. A lot of veterinarians are in your shoes. Most veterinary schools require a college degree for entry. You then pay close to $50,000 (or more) for your "technical" education. If you pursue a specialty, you have to endure an internship (many are not paid positions and involve 80 or more hour work weeks for a year to two years), then a two or three year residency program (paying on average $20,000 per year). Before you can be hired as a specialist, you have to sit for boards which usually require about a year (earning a grand whooping total of $0) of studying for successful completion. Then, and only then, you can start earning some money.
Even though I chose not to pursue specialization, I still had to work two jobs (a day and a night job) after I graduated to make ends meet. Some weeks I probably worked close to 100 hours. I've finally reached the point after 5 1/2 years that I make a fairly comfortable living and don't have to work as many hours. It's been hard, but if you keep your chin up, you'll make it.

Doc

 

[acaTerry]

The next one I hear say "Livin' the dream" is gonna get their a$$ kicked!
But I love WHAT I do...I just hate who and what I do it for. There's always Powerball too....

 

[mesaba2425]

Livin' the dream, man. Livin' the dream.

 

[atrdriver]

There are plenty of people out there who enjoy their jobs and are fairly compensated. We are basically victims of the free market.

Yeah, I know people who "enjoy" their jobs. I don't know anyone who loves their jobs like pilots. I don't know anyone who can't wait until the next time they get to do what they get paid for. That's an advantage that we have over most others in this world.

 

[DetoXJ]

These "Depressed FO's" make it sound like they are in prision and can't get out. If you are so Depressed and disgruntle...PLEASE find something else to do. A LOT of people love this job and the lifestyle/living INCLUDING many FO's that I fly with. If you are so upset that your peers are out preforming you then why keep subecting yourself to the daily misery that you do. I get a kick out of all of the pissers and moaners that we have at Mesaba and yet they continue to show up to work everyday. If you are in this for the $$ you will never be happy.

 

[Mike man]

I own a house...I bought it while I was a CFI, making only slightly less than I did my first year as a F/O. I have tons of friends who work for GM, Accenture, PeopleSoft, etc. and so on. They didn't start out making 60,000-100,000 a year, most started in the high 20's or low 30's depending on where they worked, and location. But now they make 60,000-100,000 a year or more in a few cases, but they work 5 days a week and sit in rush hour traffic every morning and every night. I don't ever sit in rush hour traffic...I have 14-17 days off each month...my friends have 8 days off a month. If you don't like it you should quit and go work at a desk in a cubical every day for the rest of your working life and listen to Sally repeat "corporate accounts payable, please hold" over and over and over and over...and don't forget the cover letter on your TPS report.

 

[belchfire]

Depressed regional FO's???

Try being a regional CA that is making
less than any 3rd year RJ FO...and when
my ship does come in, I'll probably be
in some damm airport!

 

[PacoPollo]

Ask any 6year+ FO at Eagle how does it feel.....

 

[Panda]

Maybe your brother should have to do six month and year checks to keep his job as a doctor. You know, operate within tolerances or he is either demoted to nurse or terminated, all up to the hospital, of course, and the mood of the examining doctor. Maybe a week back to med school for a little recurrent training. I am also quite positive that your doctor brother spends 300 hours a month in completely different states than his family and friends. Tell me, flyNhawaiin767, how many written tests, and multi-phase interviews did your brother go through to get his current job. Not to get his license, but his current JOB.


Just having some fun with ya hawaiin man. Please don't call me a loser.

Doctors go through annual courses called CMEs (Continued Medical Education) among other certification requirements. They are on call for extended periods of time and get little sleep at times. Getting into a Residency program is highly competitive, let alone Medical School. Anytime a Doc changes jobs, he/she undergoes a rigorous interviewing and testing process (depending on the State.) And oh, by the way, they can get sued in lose everything in a mal-practice indicident. Yes, Docs can be terminated, they can lose their license to practice medicine and to top it all, they can lose the ability to be insured. And no, they don't have a union to protect their 8+ yrs of medical education.

 

[shroomwell]

I own a house...I bought it while I was a CFI, making only slightly less than I did my first year as a F/O. I have tons of friends who work for GM, Accenture, PeopleSoft, etc. and so on. They didn't start out making 60,000-100,000 a year, most started in the high 20's or low 30's depending on where they worked, and location. But now they make 60,000-100,000 a year or more in a few cases, but they work 5 days a week and sit in rush hour traffic every morning and every night. I don't ever sit in rush hour traffic...I have 14-17 days off each month...my friends have 8 days off a month. If you don't like it you should quit and go work at a desk in a cubical every day for the rest of your working life and listen to Sally repeat "corporate accounts payable, please hold" over and over and over and over...and don't forget the cover letter on your TPS report.

That is what we call being complacent. If you are happy with your pay and don't think you deserve better, then I don't know what to say to you. Talk to the Eagle guy who has been making 35K for six years.

 

[rattler]

To everyone that said.."if you don't like the pay quit". You are the same people that are directly responsible for our low wages. Thanks for the unity!

 

[ILStoMinimums]

If you want to fly - then go for it. I do it because thats what I really enjoy doing - however, you can make lots of money using your days off. Read some of Robert Kiyosaki's books about business. He has some very powerful books which can help you create your own business along side of your airline career. It's nice to be able to say I like to fly because I enjoy it, not because its a paycheck.

 

[Corona]

If you want to fly - then go for it. I do it because thats what I really enjoy doing - however, you can make lots of money using your days off. Read some of Robert Kiyosaki's books about business. He has some very powerful books which can help you create your own business along side of your airline career. It's nice to be able to say I like to fly because I enjoy it, not because its a paycheck.

I second this advice. Read RK's first book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad. Good eye-opener.

I always love the (many) posters here who give that Moldy Oldy: "If you aren't a pilot, you'll have to work in a cubicle..." Sure, if you're a lame-a$$.

I've worked in more jobs than I could count trying to make it in the aviation biz. I've never come close to working in a cubicle or even a McJob. I've worked in agriculture, manufacturing, field research and had quite a few good-paying jobs working in the great outdoors. Just open your mind a little.

Here's another helpful hint: Volunteer. Not only will it be a great job that you'll love, but you'll be amazed at the great contacts you make. Trust me.

C

 

[SloDoDriver]

I know how you can make 40k tax free in a warm sandy environment.....Join the military and fly....The overnights suck and the hotel could be better......

I think too many people have bought Kit Darby's Bullsh*t.

 

[satpak77]

I find it interesting that the majority of us dread the "prison" of a 9-5 job, driving in traffic to work and submitting TPS reports.

Rest soundly that the many of these people dread waking up and meeting an airplane for a 6 AM wheels up, driving a "bus" around "all day", and sleeping in hotel rooms their whole life. Remind the "office people" what a regional F/O makes (and throw in how that is a stepping stone to one of the most unstable career fields outside of the oil business, some companies with no retiree medical benefits and small to nonexistant pensions), and you will get ALOT of raised eyebrows.

to each his own, dont be so arrogant that "you are in a cubicle, sucks to be you". Maybe you make 20,000 a year, have a 4 AM charter to do, and your Hyundai got towed from airport parking. Oh yeah, you have a 4 yr degree, and spent unknown $$$ to qualify for your job.

No, maybe sucks to be you

 

[7KCAB]

If you don't like it, find another job especially if you are senior to me. Just remember there will ALWAYS be someone else ready to take your place in this industry.

 

[DetoXJ]

To everyone that said.."if you don't like the pay quit". You are the same people that are directly responsible for our low wages. Thanks for the unity!

Thats ridiculous. We all knew the pay going into this and nobody was given any promise of an upgrade. If you don't like the cards you were dealt then fold and move on. You honestly think your boo hoo stories and situations are going to get you any sympothy. I would love to see our senior FO's at Mesaba get their overdue upgrades, but when they continue to pass it up I just kind of scratch my head. I guess they are too fat dumb and happy being underpaid Avro FO's and they don't want to bother with being the best paid turboprop pilots in the industry??

 

[acaTerry]

Mesaba2425 I thought you'd do that...

 

[Lequip]

Poor little Regional FO's. Mabye if $11K per year CFI's would quit taking the jobs then the entry level wages might go up. Shame on all Regional FO's for taking such hor$e$hit paying jobs. Nothing but a bunch of sells outs. The best part is listening to them gripe after the novility wears off.

 

[flyfastinmy10]

I don't know anyone that is truely happy in their job. I know lots of people that make really good money, but the stress and time spent working takes it's toll.
Working for a regional and making little money is not why we are in this business. Things will get better, unfortunatly right now the future doesn't look too good.
Good Luck