Regional Airline Pilot Supply......The New Reality

[HA25]

I don't think we need to go backwards in tech... heck I'm flying an MD-11 and frankly I find it a bit low tech at times! I'm saying that the formation of pilots is no place for that crap... Lets learn basic airmanship, navigation as it has been around for hundreds of years.. and then later, much later introduce the glass.. Most of the pilot farms however are making a transition to glass from the get go.. The US is already viewed in a low light by many in the EU, but especially the UK for having an "easy" process to get the ATP, this will only make it even more easy.

What's next.. auto throttles in Cesna 172's?

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Yes. Seriously, that's what's next (after the fadec engine in the Cessna).

NASA and the FAA want a vehicle that is automatic, just like the gov't wants an automatic car. You get in the air vehicle/car, punch in your destination, and then sit back and relax.

Anyone can do it. That's the idea.

cliff
YIP

PS-I'd LOVE to have autothrottles in the Falcon. That is the #1 worst time-consuming, attention-distracting problem in the Falcon. The physical position of the throttles have no relation to the amount of power the engine is putting out. You can move the throttle 2 inches before anything happens, or move it a mm and have it zoom up .04 epr. The rigging is non-existant, so the throttle splits are enormous. Piece of crap throttles.

 

[g-code]

No, I'm actually a lot bitter!!... you see, part of the problem today with this profession is that it's flooded with mediocre pilots who in the old days would never have gotten thru their Instrument rating, much less an ATP.. I've spent a few hours (waiting on some Sim time) recently at the Phoenix campus of Pan-Am academy where they create the future pilots to fill these Microsoft cockpits.. and listened in on two lessons.. it's really sad spacial and positional awareness is not emphasized today like it used to be when all you had was a chart, a bearing and if you're lucky a DME, otherwise it was a 2nd bearing.. It's all moving maps today and that is part of what is making it so "easy" to get thru training, land an RJ job at 500 hours and compete with everyone else for that coveted dream job.. supply and demand are all screwed up because we've got such low standards!

They still teach NDBs at my school. Im training on glass and steam gauge because I want the experience (and my instructor insisted).

 

[JohnnyP]

..........

Lets learn basic airmanship, navigation as it has been around for hundreds of years.. and then later, much later introduce the glass..

What's next.. auto throttles in Cesna 172's?

Ok, well I guess I dont have the answer really. Most of me also thinks that basics should still be taught and learned. But then some of me steps back and thinks, well, in some number of years, everything will be computers, glass, automated, satellite based, etc. So, hammering into guys years down the road, about NDB's and other aging technologies will be of no use. Like I said, eventually, not yet.

But you have to agree, someday certain techniques and so forth will be of no use to anyone. Something totally different will take its place. And then maybe a "new form of airmanship" will be born...?...maybe?...

 

[DashTrash400]

I absolutely believe that new students should be taught pilotage and dead reckoning, using cross-bearings to locate their position, no-gyro navigation, and NDB approaches. Not because they'll ever directly use these skills while flying for the airlines (have shot exactly one NDB approach in the Q400) - but because practice in these things develops situational and positional awareness, which are absolutely critical for a pilot to have even in this day of moving maps. Think about the Pinnacle CRJ that almost splatted themselves on Mt Helena on the missed approach from HLN. It is absolutely possible to hit rocks even when they're on the screen right in front of your face if you are not in the habit of always thinking about where you are and where you want to be. Learning the "obsolete" skills instills these habits.

 

[HA25]

I absolutely believe that new students should be taught pilotage and dead reckoning, using cross-bearings to locate their position, no-gyro navigation, and NDB approaches. Not because they'll ever directly use these skills while flying for the airlines (have shot exactly one NDB approach in the Q400) - but because practice in these things develops situational and positional awareness, which are absolutely critical for a pilot to have even in this day of moving maps. Think about the Pinnacle CRJ that almost splatted themselves on Mt Helena on the missed approach from HLN. It is absolutely possible to hit rocks even when they're on the screen right in front of your face if you are not in the habit of always thinking about where you are and where you want to be. Learning the "obsolete" skills instills these habits.

Bingo!

It's bad enough that their first jobs today where they truly form their skills and experience are in 100% glass RJs, but then the lack of strong emphasis on these basics in their initial training not only limits their ability and confidence in flying raw date, but more seriously takes away one of the weeding out processes that was in place to make sure pilots getting their various ratings ACTUALLY had basic spacial and positional skills critical to this profession!

 

[Leroy Smith]

With the rate that NDBs are being decomissioned and proceedures are being "straightened" out, its true that these skills are becoming more and more irrelevant in the US. However, learning to fly NDB approaches or DME arcs with only DME and a CDI do teach a lot about situational awareness. Just like teaching partial panel technique: there is an outside chance it will save your bacon some day, but the real benefit is ancillary.

g-code, kudos to you having some pride and doing more than the minimum required to get ahead (and my hat is off to your instructor for not just checking the boxes and shipping you off, there are fewer and fewer who even know the difference)!

 

[JohnnyP]

.......

I absolutely believe that new students should be taught pilotage and dead reckoning, using cross-bearings to locate their position, no-gyro navigation, and NDB approaches. Not because they'll ever directly use these skills while flying for the airlines (have shot exactly one NDB approach in the Q400) - but because practice in these things develops situational and positional awareness, which are absolutely critical for a pilot to have even in this day of moving maps. Think about the Pinnacle CRJ that almost splatted themselves on Mt Helena on the missed approach from HLN. It is absolutely possible to hit rocks even when they're on the screen right in front of your face if you are not in the habit of always thinking about where you are and where you want to be. Learning the "obsolete" skills instills these habits.

Well, you cant argue with that.

But what happens when there are no ground based nav's to get cross bearings from???....I know, I know....I'm just trying to keep this going. Dont pay attention to me.......

 

[HA25]

Well, you cant argue with that.

But what happens when there are no ground based nav's to get cross bearings from???....I know, I know....I'm just trying to keep this going. Dont pay attention to me.......

I know it was in jest, but to help educate anyone who might not know.. I'm mostly flying internationally, and the VAST majority of it is still non-radar, and using VOR's and NDB's for approaches, and en route airways. This type of skill is going to be critical for at least another generation, and this is why for example you're now seeing companies like UPS demanding international experience, because the CFI to RJ career path just doesn't begin to cover the rest of the worlds demands on airmanship.. You really need to have some grounding in the old style navigation and radio work.

 

[Papps]

haha great writing. pretty much every regional out there. I love to see managment sweat when they can't get people to come to an interview or last longer than 3 months on line. Kinda deflates there ego alittle bit. And they spend money like crazy training new people or upgrading people because curbing attrition through better work rules/ pay seems so intangiable. And paying for S'loads of training is easier to explain to shareholders than giving the employees incentives keep living that crap lifestyle of a regional whipping boy.

 

[rfa]

I am so glad I started this whole thing in a Beech 1900.

 

[jmreii]

Gps

I Started on the steam guages, and I now use glass with GPS. It makes those ndb's, vor approaches, and dme arc's lovely. Especially when those navaids are not up to snuff.

 

[Leroy Smith]

I Started on the steam guages, and I now use glass with GPS. It makes those ndb's, vor approaches, and dme arc's lovely. Especially when those navaids are not up to snuff.

Glass IS good. But it helps to know what the man behind the curtain is doing.


"What's it doing?!" "Why's it doing that?!" "Where's it taking us?!"

 

[Goose Egg]

I'm just an 1100 hour CFI, and even I think that doing primary training in a glass cockpit is a horrible mistake.

Think about the Pinnacle CRJ that almost splatted themselves on Mt Helena on the missed approach from HLN.

I've also almost splatted myself on Mt. Helena, but then again, I was hiking.

-Goose

 

[HA25]

I am so glad I started this whole thing in a Beech 1900.

when I used to fly at the "Commuters" I used to laugh at and look down on those 1900 guys, but truth be told, with no autopilot, no FMS and turbo prop powerplant management, that is a Man's airplane! Some of the best sticks I've flown with cut their teeth on a 1900 at one of the bottom feeder operators in FL.. A 1000 hours in that and you're good as you're going to get under IFR.

 

[JediNein]

My favorite test question thus for is "what is the CDI sensitivity at the FAWP on a GPS approach". ANSWER: .3NM.

Actually, the 0.3nm answer is not completely correct. If you have a WAAS-Certified GPS unit, the sensitivity can be .2 NM or a calculation of 2 degrees full scale deflection at the FAWP. It depends on what type of an approach you are flying, your equipment, and, the alignment of the stars (satellites) and sun (solar wave activity), but not the moon.

It's not a matter of a hobby, it's a matter of paying attention while working, and making your hobby into your work.

 

[pgcfii2002]

Teacher's Pet?

 

[g-code]

With the rate that NDBs are being decomissioned and proceedures are being "straightened" out, its true that these skills are becoming more and more irrelevant in the US. However, learning to fly NDB approaches or DME arcs with only DME and a CDI do teach a lot about situational awareness. Just like teaching partial panel technique: there is an outside chance it will save your bacon some day, but the real benefit is ancillary.

g-code, kudos to you having some pride and doing more than the minimum required to get ahead (and my hat is off to your instructor for not just checking the boxes and shipping you off, there are fewer and fewer who even know the difference)!

Thanks. I feel its important especially if I apply to Expressjet or ASA where they fly to Mexico and NDBs are more prevailent.

I may end up being a 500 "wonder pilot" but I will be the best 500 hr. wonder pilot I can be .

And to think, 18 months ago I was considering the RAA. uke:

 

[JediNein]

Teacher's Pet?

Nope. Had to learn that one on my own. :beer:

 

[Denizen]

Curious as to when that little nugget of info would ever come in handy? Besides dazzling students and showing them how really smart you are?