Regarding UAL Troubles

[Kid Charlemagne]

Couple comments

As the originator of this thread, thought I'd make a couple quick observations:

Ty Webb,

Your posts are consistently well thought-out, fair, and insightful. They also happen to make sense! I'm glad to see AirTran is hiring sharp guys like you.


Spinup,

Why can't you get it through your head no one is ENTITLED to an airline job - not even those who happen to be minorities. Ty Webb is exactly right....to lower the competitive qualifications just because one is a minority or (more often) a white female is completely unfair and wrongheaded!! And it hurts them as well - how can you respect someone who was handed their job because of their skin color or reproductive plumbing? I know a commuter captain who told me that many times (back when UAL was still hiring like gangbusters) he'd have a female in the right seat....they'd watch a Untited plane takeoff and she'd say "There goes my airline (giggle giggle)". Now why would she say that?? Because she (like everybody else) knew UAL's hiring process is a joke and the job there is hers to lose just cause she's a female!! As a matter of fact, she knew she had a better shot than the guy sitting in the left seat of her airplane - that is what made my buddy so angry and I don't blame him....but that's what this system does, it fosters resentment and anger. And after seeing that, you think he's gonna respect any female United pilots he sees??? Gimme a break.


Redsplitail,

If you can't understand that hiring should be based on merit, not race or gender, than I have nothing else to say to you. And I just bet you have a "Girls in Aviation" or something bumper sticker on your flight bag! GMAFB!!!!!

 

[embdrvr]

The EAL guys in retrospect were better off since their company tanked in a era when there were jobs available to start a new career.

Let me finish that sentence for you.
The EAL guys in retrospect were better off since their company tanked in a era when there were jobs available to start a new careeroutside of aviation.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Question for spinup

Spinup,

I know it's supposed to be "don't ask, don't tell".....but I would just love to ask you the question....seeing your choice of avatar and all....and you being so in touch with your feminine side.

NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT... LOL

 

[100LL... Again!]

To the guy a while back that said he got opn with a major because of his 'qualifications' and he was not a minority:

It appears you flew a saab. What other quals make you so worthy? Maybe you, as many others, were in the right place at the right time and the interviewer liked you. Maybe we should all go fly saabs if we'd like to get on with a major.

Your post seem to use a result (you getting hired), as an attempt to disprove someone else's point (that discriminatory practices were in existence).

BTW:

Out of the half dozen or so times that I jumpseated on UAL, I would have to say that I was treated more rudely by the captain than on any other airline I traveled on. So I agree with the posts made earlier.

 

[SWA/FO]

SpongeBob rules!!

Lets rip on Delta..thats way more fun!

 

[spinup]

Kid,

You want to compare avatars. Lets see, a cartoon sponge vs. a guy in tight clothing. Your right, one does have to wonder.

 

[Redtailer]

When you hire minorities before they meet the COMPETITIVE MINIMUMS of the othr applicants, you are also doing a disservice to the rest of the members of that minority group, who got their jobs by gaining the time and experience to become competitively qualified.

Let's see, the last time I was in an airline new hire class there were 3 minorities all of which had nothing under 3000hrs and 1000 turbine and at least 1 type rating. The majority of the minorities that I meet DO NOT get hired at a major airline with less than that. I said it before YOU have no right to determine who is competetive and who is not. That is the job of HR. How would you like it if a 20,000 hr pilot told you that you were not competetive?

I said before that amongst the White Male population there is a perception that all minorities get hired at a really low time. This is not the case. I had to fly my butt off just like everyone else out there and it is the same way for just about every minority out there. We just have the added weight of racism and sexism to deal with. I would gladly trade you for those issues.

Also I said ON AVERAGE minorities are hired at lower times meaning instead of getting on at 4000hrs they may get on at 3000. Not exactly non-competetive. I know there are exceptions to this, but for every exception I can point to a white male who got on at just a low of time due to his father working there or having an in with the company.

Bottom line is the general perception is way off base.

TY:

As I said earlier, you could really benefit from a Statistics class. That is not a personal attack, just an observation. You provide a subset of numbers, but without including the number of licensed, qualified female pilots, it is just gibberish.

The real reason number of minority pilots is lower is because there are less minority applicants who are competitively qualified for the position.

I have given you some of my sources and verifiable numbers, but that's too much like seeing the truth. I suppose it's easier for you to live a lie. Give me some time and I can gather that information for you. However, so far you have produced no numbers of minorities getting hired on at or below minimum times or any other FACTS. All you have done is repeated misguided perceptions. Don't throw stones in glass houses.

I know you have been brought up to believe that preferential hiring is somehow your birthright

Once again you have no idea what you are repeating the party line. I NEVER at any time or manner implied that I am OWED a job or anything else. I am not expecting it. All I want is a fair shot and without affirmative action I would not get it no matter how much time I may have. History can attest to that FACT.

Ok, enough pondering over misperceptions, here are more FACTS. Something that Ty and Charlemagne seem to be VERY short on.

#1: Most minorities are very highly qualified and competetive.

#2: Because of the increased scrutiny minorities have to be BETTER, not just as good as or competetive, but BETTER than an average White Male to have the same shot at most jobs not involving affirmative action.

#3: To all those who keep questioning my qualifications, which by the way because I am a minority I have to deal with such prejudices on a DAILY basis, I am a Black Male with a BS Double Major Airway Science/Computer Science with a 3.82 GPA, over 5000 hours and a few type ratings with over 2000 hours PIC, ATP, CFII, MEI, FE turbojet, and NEVER failed a checkride, with no incidents/accidents. Happy?

That's what it took for me to get a major airline job. Doesn't quite fit in to your little dream world now does it? The truth is that most of the minorities need those kinds of qualifications to get a job. If you choose to believe something different then so be it, but I have lived it and I know many others doing the same thing.

The oddest thing though. The ones that I hear most complaining about not being able to get hired due to "Reverse Discrimination" mostly either have a couple accidents in their past or do not have a college degree. That is just my PERSONAL experience.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

If you think 350 hours is "competetive," let me know what prescription meds you're on.

I had a female former student get hired at UAL in 1999 with 3,000 hours TT and 300 Turbine (no Turbine PIC.) That's fair?

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

I'm guessing she's now....out of a job?

 

[Ty Webb]

This string has just gotten more and more ridiculous. Redtailer and redtailer sympathizers can say whatever they want, but like the Iraqi Information Minister, eventually, it just becomes laughable. It would be funny if it weren;t so sad.

Anyway, I'm bowing out.

Redtailer (who I suspect is not a black male at all, but a white female, oddly enough) is just "too far gone" to be able to see anything from an objective viewpoint.

I'm outta here. You guys (and gals) have a good one.