Regarding UAL Troubles

[Redtailer]

46Driver and Ty,

I'll just repost what I said earlier:




Competitively qualified, once again as long as they meet the airline minimums then it is all good minority or not. What you fail to realize is that minorities were not the only ones being taken at or near those minimums, just the most visible. There were several others including interns, which by the way had their own stack as well, those with recommendations, and those whose parents worked there. If you're going to complain about one group you should complain about all of them, but because they are not an easy target why bother? Not to mention that there were a lot more of them than any minority group.

Signup said:

A logical conclusion to be drawn is that generations prior to us had very little if any competition with minority groups, and these very people still are in positions to help majority groups gain employment. Minority groups don't enjoy this benefit, so that lends even more validity to preferential interviewing.

This is a very true statement and one of the reasons for affirmative action nationwide. Keep in mind the MAJORITY, without these rules in place, tend to intentionally exclude the MINORITY no matter the qualifications. History has proven that.

So lets just get rid of affirmative action and let the "Good 'ol boy network" do it's thing.

 

[spinup]

Ty Webb,

What you advocate is to sit back and watch things correct themselves without being proactive, in essence stagnation. Do you really think the old school rhetoric on the flight line will allow this to happen? Gimme a break. Comments and attitudes prevalent in aviation prevent any progress in this area. We had a chance to fairly integrate and neglected to do so already.

As for your University comments, I'm not sure how that comparison as any bearing on aviation preferential interviewing. All applicants have to meet the same minimum requirements, without exception.

As for your ability to speak up, glad to hear you had an average American upbringing.

 

[46Driver]

One more time: no one should get preferential hiring on the basis of race or gender - which is the reason behind all of the uproar over continued affirmative action. When you have minorities (and females) on the Supreme Court, in the Presidential Cabinet, in the Congress, as the Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff - then you have arrived.

Lets just get rid of affirmative action and hire someone based upon their merits - what a concept.

 

[spinup]

46driver,

I understand what you are saying, but we are not there yet in aviation. In my opinion we are still a long way off mainly due to the seniority system in place. Past hiring practices are exasperated because it takes 20 to 30 years for implementations to take full effect, as pilots move up in senority. Most likely aviation will be the final industry to right it's wrongs.

 

[Redtailer]

Lets just get rid of affirmative action and hire someone based upon their merits - what a concept.

That's the first thing I've seen you post that I absolutely agree with. The problem is it works in an ideal world and we do not live in one. I'm not saying that minorities are being hired under qualified, because contrary to popular belief, they're not. What the anger about is that, on average, they are hired at lower flight times than white males. They still meet the minimums for that carrier. If you don't think they are qualified to fly the aircraft at those times then the minimums need to be raised at your company.

If there were no affirmative action there would be scores of minorities NOT getting hired on their merits. Look at the dismal numbers of the 1980s. But once again, if it doesn't affect you why would you care? Right?

Just for comparison:

Minority Makeup (Including White Females)
(1989) Before Affirmative action ~ 4%
(1999) After Affirmative action ~ 10%

So you guys are complaining about a system that only increased the total minority population by 6%? That is a small price to pay for the 90% of minorities that would have never stood a chance in the industry regardless of what their qualifications were. But then the white males would have gotten to keep their exclusive club, so that's ok.

That's exactly what you guys sound like.

As I stated earlier, it's not the 10% you need to be worried about. It's the other 90% (read White Males) that will take your job.

 

[Ty Webb]

No, Spinup:


What you are advocating is racism and sexism, just skewed to your own race and sex, and that is why we disagree.

I am for fairness to ALL pilots, and preferential hiring is not fair to ALL pilots.

'Nuff said.

 

[Ty Webb]

Redtailer:

As I said earlier, you could really benefit from a Statistics class. That is not a personal attack, just an observation. You provide a subset of numbers, but without including the number of licensed, qualified female pilots, it is just gibberish.

The real reason number of minority pilots is lower is because there are less minority applicants who are competitively qualified for the position.

What this industry needs are competitively qualified minorities who are hired under a system that judges applicants on their merits.

The answer is not to lower the bar, and give preference to one group over the other- that only breeds resentment and re-inforces stereotypes.

When you hire minorities before they meet the COMPETITIVE MINIMUMS of the othr applicants, you are also doing a disservice to the rest of the members of that minority group, who got their jobs by gaining the time and experience to become competitively qualified.

I know you have been brought up to believe that preferential hiring is somehow your birthright, but I am here to tell you that it is simply reverse discrimination. I don;t expect you to be able to step back and see my point, because you are way too close to the subject to be objective.

Good luck, and good luck losing that chip.

 

[spinup]

Ty Webb,

To set you at ease, I am a white male. Apparently that matters to you. What doesn't seem to matter to you is doing the right thing. Elaborate as to how I am being sexist and racist. Comments like those demand explanation, so no you are not done.

 

[Ty Webb]

Spinup-

Discriminating against white males in some well-intentioned but misguided effort to correct "past wrongs" is racist.

The white males that are getting discriminated against, for the most part, are not who you think they are. They are not the "good ol' boy" senior pilots at the majors, who you probably were taught "benefitted" from the system.

It's the Regional Captain who watches their female FO's get hired out of the right seat who is getting hurt. And the CFI that watches his female students get interviews and jobs before his male students. That does not breed respect!

PC robots basically just repeat the same mantra over and over again . . . . "The minority applicant meets the minimums". . . . . the problem is that they are often hired before they meet the competitive minimums, which is way different.

If the female pilot shows up for class having met the published minimums of 800tt but everyone else in the class has 3000tt and a type rating in something turbine, someone else who had paid their dues got bumped to let the 800tt pilot in, and that is obvious to everyone in the class.

It is not fair to the guy who got passed over to let her in, it is not fair to her sim partner, and it is not fair to the other female pilots at the company, who had the 3000tt and type.

Those simple truths get lost in PC land. Look at Redtailer, who is so "high" on her own sense of entitlement that she can't even get her mind around the difference between "published minimums" and "competitive minimums" . . . . .

We both want the same goal- fairness and equality for all applicants, but your way (preferential hiring) keeps me from being able to do much to support your postion.

My grandmother, who was one of the first female attorneys, had to deal with an tmosphere unimaginable today, but she did it her way, on her own merits, paving the way for those behind her. without handing it to them.

All I know is I am done with this string. I am going to hit the pool with my family. You guys and gals can take it from here.

 

[spinup]

Ty Webb,

Well said, that was the best post you have made concerning this yet. I see where you are coming from.

Preferential interviewing is certainly not without its pitfalls, I recognize this. The only perfect way to address this issue is for it to have never happened. Now that it has, affirmative action appears to be the best way to get back on track. I disagree that the current situation will take care of itself, one needs to only look as far as the types of individual recommendations they have submitted over the course of a career. This is not to say that one would avoid minority recommendations, they just don't occur as often. Nor would it with the majority doing the recommending. Preferential interviewing softens this disconnect.

I completely agree with you that it's not fair we are paying for historic malpractice, but the truth is that to fix this problem someone has to. I don't like it anymore than you. I would graciously accept any viable alternative, as this one breeds malcontent and distention. You cite some very good examples of this. That being said, I believe preferential interviewing to be the best option.

It comes down to this; either you believe the lack of minorities in aviation is problem or you don't. If you do, than (at least for now) preferential interviewing appears the only viable fix, and clearly far from being a perfect solution.

Enjoy the pool

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Couple comments

As the originator of this thread, thought I'd make a couple quick observations:

Ty Webb,

Your posts are consistently well thought-out, fair, and insightful. They also happen to make sense! I'm glad to see AirTran is hiring sharp guys like you.


Spinup,

Why can't you get it through your head no one is ENTITLED to an airline job - not even those who happen to be minorities. Ty Webb is exactly right....to lower the competitive qualifications just because one is a minority or (more often) a white female is completely unfair and wrongheaded!! And it hurts them as well - how can you respect someone who was handed their job because of their skin color or reproductive plumbing? I know a commuter captain who told me that many times (back when UAL was still hiring like gangbusters) he'd have a female in the right seat....they'd watch a Untited plane takeoff and she'd say "There goes my airline (giggle giggle)". Now why would she say that?? Because she (like everybody else) knew UAL's hiring process is a joke and the job there is hers to lose just cause she's a female!! As a matter of fact, she knew she had a better shot than the guy sitting in the left seat of her airplane - that is what made my buddy so angry and I don't blame him....but that's what this system does, it fosters resentment and anger. And after seeing that, you think he's gonna respect any female United pilots he sees??? Gimme a break.


Redsplitail,

If you can't understand that hiring should be based on merit, not race or gender, than I have nothing else to say to you. And I just bet you have a "Girls in Aviation" or something bumper sticker on your flight bag! GMAFB!!!!!

 

[embdrvr]

The EAL guys in retrospect were better off since their company tanked in a era when there were jobs available to start a new career.

Let me finish that sentence for you.
The EAL guys in retrospect were better off since their company tanked in a era when there were jobs available to start a new careeroutside of aviation.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Question for spinup

Spinup,

I know it's supposed to be "don't ask, don't tell".....but I would just love to ask you the question....seeing your choice of avatar and all....and you being so in touch with your feminine side.

NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT... LOL

 

[100LL... Again!]

To the guy a while back that said he got opn with a major because of his 'qualifications' and he was not a minority:

It appears you flew a saab. What other quals make you so worthy? Maybe you, as many others, were in the right place at the right time and the interviewer liked you. Maybe we should all go fly saabs if we'd like to get on with a major.

Your post seem to use a result (you getting hired), as an attempt to disprove someone else's point (that discriminatory practices were in existence).

BTW:

Out of the half dozen or so times that I jumpseated on UAL, I would have to say that I was treated more rudely by the captain than on any other airline I traveled on. So I agree with the posts made earlier.

 

[SWA/FO]

SpongeBob rules!!

Lets rip on Delta..thats way more fun!

 

[spinup]

Kid,

You want to compare avatars. Lets see, a cartoon sponge vs. a guy in tight clothing. Your right, one does have to wonder.

 

[Redtailer]

When you hire minorities before they meet the COMPETITIVE MINIMUMS of the othr applicants, you are also doing a disservice to the rest of the members of that minority group, who got their jobs by gaining the time and experience to become competitively qualified.

Let's see, the last time I was in an airline new hire class there were 3 minorities all of which had nothing under 3000hrs and 1000 turbine and at least 1 type rating. The majority of the minorities that I meet DO NOT get hired at a major airline with less than that. I said it before YOU have no right to determine who is competetive and who is not. That is the job of HR. How would you like it if a 20,000 hr pilot told you that you were not competetive?

I said before that amongst the White Male population there is a perception that all minorities get hired at a really low time. This is not the case. I had to fly my butt off just like everyone else out there and it is the same way for just about every minority out there. We just have the added weight of racism and sexism to deal with. I would gladly trade you for those issues.

Also I said ON AVERAGE minorities are hired at lower times meaning instead of getting on at 4000hrs they may get on at 3000. Not exactly non-competetive. I know there are exceptions to this, but for every exception I can point to a white male who got on at just a low of time due to his father working there or having an in with the company.

Bottom line is the general perception is way off base.

TY:

As I said earlier, you could really benefit from a Statistics class. That is not a personal attack, just an observation. You provide a subset of numbers, but without including the number of licensed, qualified female pilots, it is just gibberish.

The real reason number of minority pilots is lower is because there are less minority applicants who are competitively qualified for the position.

I have given you some of my sources and verifiable numbers, but that's too much like seeing the truth. I suppose it's easier for you to live a lie. Give me some time and I can gather that information for you. However, so far you have produced no numbers of minorities getting hired on at or below minimum times or any other FACTS. All you have done is repeated misguided perceptions. Don't throw stones in glass houses.

I know you have been brought up to believe that preferential hiring is somehow your birthright

Once again you have no idea what you are repeating the party line. I NEVER at any time or manner implied that I am OWED a job or anything else. I am not expecting it. All I want is a fair shot and without affirmative action I would not get it no matter how much time I may have. History can attest to that FACT.

Ok, enough pondering over misperceptions, here are more FACTS. Something that Ty and Charlemagne seem to be VERY short on.

#1: Most minorities are very highly qualified and competetive.

#2: Because of the increased scrutiny minorities have to be BETTER, not just as good as or competetive, but BETTER than an average White Male to have the same shot at most jobs not involving affirmative action.

#3: To all those who keep questioning my qualifications, which by the way because I am a minority I have to deal with such prejudices on a DAILY basis, I am a Black Male with a BS Double Major Airway Science/Computer Science with a 3.82 GPA, over 5000 hours and a few type ratings with over 2000 hours PIC, ATP, CFII, MEI, FE turbojet, and NEVER failed a checkride, with no incidents/accidents. Happy?

That's what it took for me to get a major airline job. Doesn't quite fit in to your little dream world now does it? The truth is that most of the minorities need those kinds of qualifications to get a job. If you choose to believe something different then so be it, but I have lived it and I know many others doing the same thing.

The oddest thing though. The ones that I hear most complaining about not being able to get hired due to "Reverse Discrimination" mostly either have a couple accidents in their past or do not have a college degree. That is just my PERSONAL experience.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

If you think 350 hours is "competetive," let me know what prescription meds you're on.

I had a female former student get hired at UAL in 1999 with 3,000 hours TT and 300 Turbine (no Turbine PIC.) That's fair?

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

I'm guessing she's now....out of a job?

 

[Ty Webb]

This string has just gotten more and more ridiculous. Redtailer and redtailer sympathizers can say whatever they want, but like the Iraqi Information Minister, eventually, it just becomes laughable. It would be funny if it weren;t so sad.

Anyway, I'm bowing out.

Redtailer (who I suspect is not a black male at all, but a white female, oddly enough) is just "too far gone" to be able to see anything from an objective viewpoint.

I'm outta here. You guys (and gals) have a good one.