Referral - want to make some $$$$money

[1800rvr]

Referral - want to make some $$$$ money

Hello my fellow forum readers.

This is my first posting, so hear goes.

I have been watching this forum for some time now, and there appears to be indivuals who have a "inside edge" in the hiring at some of the nations airlines. Anyone who thinks they can help a fellow brother in need, it will be most appreciated.

I am a victim of age discrimination. I am 51 yoa, and cannot find a flying job. I am not passing a sob story, or seeking sympathy, just trying to get a push in the right direction to some higherups that can help out in the hiring process. I simply want to finish out what is left in my flying career with some time at a reputable, well managed company.

Most regionals have turned me down due to being "overqualified' with 11,000 hours, and most of the passenger outfits I have interviewed at question my long past history with various cargo operators.

It is very simple, I flew cargo because no passenger airline would hire me!!!!!!!!!!!!

If any reader can help a fellow brother with 11,000 hours total time, 8000+ heavy jet, college degree, and no accidents, incidents or violations and a clean background.......then you will find a big fat referral fee in your mailbox.

Email me at [email protected], explain to me who you work for, what you can do and a email attachment will be returned to you with all the information.

Gentlemen, please no flames, spam or hassle. I am very serious about this in trying to get back to work. Please be serious on your part.

[email protected]

A very sincere and humble, Thank You.


1800rvr

 

[chazman]

I am not passing a sob story, or seeking sympathy .....

Thats good. You probably won't find much sympathy here...

Chaz

 

[Lear70]

Are you on the SCAB list?

 

[bobbysamd]

Age discrimination

I am a victim of age discrimination. I am 51 yoa, and cannot find a flying job . . . .

To the poster above and to others who've scoffed at my numerous writings about how I believe that I was an age discrimination victim:

I told you so.

With quals certainly not being an issue in this gentleman's case:

14,000 hours total time, 8000+ heavy jet, college degree, and no accidents, incidents or violations and a clean background.

I know exactly how you feel, sir. Heretofore, I was the apparent lone voice in the wilderness about age discrimination. I am glad to see you speak up, though I regret that you, too, are a victim. Now maybe others will believe what I've been saying here for two years.

I was a career changer and had built up my experience sufficently enough to meet commuter mins for the late '80s - early '90s. I was 40. I had interviews, but was not hired. In the meantime, there were several other commuters to which I applied for years and which never responded to me. The 25-and-under folks got interviews and jobs at these same places, which, once more, for those who do not seem to comprehend what I am saying, never responded to me. Their credentials and mine were virtually alike, e.g., enough time, ratings, and four-year degree. Nothing that could give them an advantage, such as 135, turbine or freight. Their experience was only in flight instructing, just like mine.

I tried using a contact to gain access to one regional to which I had applied for years and it helped not one iota. There is no doubt in my mind that I experienced age discrimination, or career-changer discrimination, etc.

You have my sympathy, and empathy. I wish that I could help you but I couldn't help myself.

Best of luck. I heard recently that Frontier is hiring. Have you tried foreign carriers, e.g. JAL? Many of them may not be hiring, though, and it may not be your cup of tea.

 

[Midnight Mike]

Typhoon has been posting job openings at Emirates
Heard that an overseas airline is looking for 767 drivers, will find out the name of the airline, pay is pretty crappy. Here is something else.

MD83 Pilot Job
POSITION: MD83 Captains

COMPANY: Holland Canada Line

CONTACT: Barb W.

ADDRESS: No. 30002 - 8602 Granville Street Vancouver, BC - V6P 6S3 CANADA

TELEPHONE AND/OR FAX NUMBER: NO PHONE CALLS PLEASE

WEBSITE: www.hollandcanadaline.com <http://www.hollandcanadaline.com>

DATE: Wednesday, September 17, 2003

DESCRIPTION:

Immediate positions for 6x MD83 Captains. Over age 60 WELCOME (don't exceed 65 however).

FAA License preferred, others welcome.

F/O - please do NOT apply.

IF YOU do not qualify we offer a $1000 USD referral fee if you refer us a candidate that will get accepted. Sent your candidate to our website AND email us with the name of the person AND your contact details (so we can mail you your check).

Basic conditions are below however review the JOB PAGE on our WEBSITE.

APPLICATION FOR THIS POSITION IS ALSO VIA THE JOB PAGE. (03-JTG-MD83).

03JTG-MD33

HOLLAND CANADA LINE INC - NO PHONE CALLS PLEASE

www.hollandcanadaline.com <http://www.hollandcanadaline.com> select "Main Index" from the "Crew Services" dropdown menu.

$=USD per MONTH

$6000 Base

$1500 Overtime Guarantee/Month

$0750 Per Diem

$0500 Living Allowance (YYZ or YUL)

$0100 Insurance

$0350 Base Transportation Allowance

$0200 Duty Expense Buffer

$9400 TOTAL

Based in YYZ or YUL.

REVIEW CONDITIONS and APPLY per Instructions on the Job Page: www.hollandcanadaline.com <http://www.hollandcanadaline.com> select "Main Index" from the "Crew Services" dropdown menu. Please reference Pilot Shack when applying.

 

[confused]

Re: Age discrimination

To the poster above and to others who've scoffed at my numerous writings about how I believe that I was an age discrimination victim:

I told you so.

With quals certainly not being an issue in this gentleman's case:

I know exactly how you feel, sir. Heretofore, I was the apparent lone voice in the wilderness about age discrimination. I am glad to see you speak up, though I regret that you, too, are a victim. Now maybe others will believe what I've been saying here for two years.

I was a career changer and had built up my experience sufficently enough to meet commuter mins for the late '80s - early '90s. I was 40. I had interviews, but was not hired. In the meantime, there were several other commuters to which I applied for years and which never responded to me. The 25-and-under folks got interviews at jobs at these same places, which, once more, for those who do not seem to comprehend what I am saying, never responded to me. Their credentials and mine were virtually alike, e.g., enough time, ratings, and four-year degree. Nothing that could give them an advantage, such as 135, turbine or freight. Their experience was only in flight instructing, just like mine.

I tried using a contact to gain access to one regional to which I had applied for years and it helped not one iota. There is no doubt in my mind that I experienced age discrimination, or career-changer discrimination, etc.

You have my sympathy, and empathy. I wish that I could help you but I couldn't help myself.

Best of luck. I heard recently that Frontier is hiring. Have you tried foreign carriers, e.g. JAL? Many of them may not be hiring, though, and it may not be your cup of tea. [/B]

bobbysamd,

I really wish you'd let this issue die. Are you really trying to convince us that if a person with the right qualifications on paper is not not hired, that it must be because of age discrimination?

What about those "qualified" applicants with no degree? With spelling and grammatical errors on their resume and/or application? With violation histories? With lousy personalities? With 10,000 hours of SIC time and no type ratings? With training busts and failures?

How can you honestly believe that if someone with the hours is not in demand, that it is soley about age discrimination? GET OVER IT! Maybe your attitude came across in your interviews, and that is why you weren't hired.

 

[bobbysamd]

Age discrimination

Are you really trying to convince us that if a person with the right qualifications on paper is not not hired, that it must be because of age discrimination . . . . Maybe your attitude came across in your interviews, and that is why you weren't hired.

(emphasis added)

Well, first of all, to be hired you must have an interview. To get the interview you must send in your resume. Your resume will provide your work history and school history, from which your age can be determined, or it might just give your birth date. Thus, your age can be determined.

I will not accept any responses that I erred or was stupid to put my date of birth on my resume. I tried it both ways and finally decided it was "stupid" not to. Application packages ask for your copies of your pilot certificates, which make it a no-brainer to determine your age, no matter how hard you try to hide it.

If you present virtually the same quals as the other guy but you are older, the other guy is called but you are not, then you are a book being judged only by its cover. In other words, I wasn't even given a chance by most of those to which I applied to convey my "bad" attitude.

What about those "qualified" applicants with no degree? With spelling and grammatical errors on their resume and/or application? With violation histories? With lousy personalities? With 10,000 hours of SIC time and no type ratings? With training busts and failures?

I don't quite understand your point, but I gather that you believe that these issues would be disqualifiers. What about these people, then? I will address each point:

1. Conventional wisdom has dictated that you need a degree, though not necessarily for some places.

2. Violation histories may well be a detriment. Still, violation histories won't be uncovered unless authorization is granted to obtain records.

3. Those who submit imperfect paperwork are probably shooting themselves in the foot out the gate.

4. Not everyone gets along with each other. It is a subjective judgment if someone is deemed to have a lousy personality.

5. Of course, one needs time in type if that is a consideration. However, I recall a former student who had primarily SIC time from her stint at SkyWest being hired at FedEx. I believe she is now a Captain there.

6. Training busts and failures might indicate a poor candidate, but records must be obtained to document training history. That's easy to obtain today. Thirteen years ago, there was no PRIA.

I will repeat. My peers and I had virtually identical credentials; in fact, I might have had slightly better credentials in terms of hours, multi and my ATP. They were fifteen years younger and were being interviewed and hired. I applied to the same places and updated for years. I, at 40+, was not. Go figure.

 

[English]

Bobbysamd,

Why did you list your age on your resume?

 

[bobbysamd]

Age listing

Why did you list your age on your resume?

Because there was no point in hiding it. As I wrote above, at least back in the days when I was applying you had to include your pilot certificates with your application, or at least list your certificate number. I also recall having to provide driver records. At Mesa, Mr. Grady Reed asked to see my certificates. I am sure that at my other interviews I had to produce my certificates. Finally, while application forms did not ask specifically for your date of birth, they did ask for your dates of school attendance. So, no matter which way you slice the pie, you cannot hide your age.

 

[English]

Re: Age discrimination

I was a career changer and had built up my experience sufficently enough to meet commuter mins for the late '80s - early '90s. I was 40. I had interviews, but was not hired.

Wait, you wrote here that you did have interviews. Also, you wrote that you put your age on your resumes and applications. The logic here leads one to believe that the recruiters knew your age when they called you in to interview. They would not have wasted their time to call you in to interview unless they liked what they saw on your resume and/or application. Obviously your age was not an issue or they would not have called you in, knowing you were 40. At most companies, if you are called to interview, they have already decided they want you. The interview usually is a way for the applicant to talk himself/herself out of a job.

It sounds like you are just not willing to admit that there might have been other reasons why they didn't hire you.

 

[bobbysamd]

Age discrimination

It sounds like you are just not willing to admit that there might have been other reasons why they didn't hire you.

I had few interviews in comparison to the number of places where I applied. I don't know what happened at my interviews. I would have liked to have known. I tried calling Comair after I interviewed there. I called the Chief Pilot in Orlando and asked if there was something I could have done differently. I said up front I realized I would not be hired. He said it was policy not to tell an applicant why he/she was not hired.

I interviewed in 1990 at Mesa. Grady Reed, who, I learned later, was Mr. Beech 1900, first asked to see my pilot certificates. So much for trying to conceal age, which I would never do, anyway. He then asked if I had any questions. At the time, the Canadair and Embraer RJs were being developed. They were featured in pilot magazines. I asked Mr. Reed if Mesa was planning to acquire these aircraft. He said "no," but the tone and look was tantamount to a rejection letter, which I later received. Interview experts counsel applicants to ask questions that show an interest in the company. I learned from that experience that doing so can have grave consequences.

I would submit that perhaps I was brought in to interview in a couple of places in bad faith just because I was older. They needed me in order to check off an ADEA and EEOC square. No matter how well I would have done, I wouldn't have been hired.

I am talking about other places where I applied for years, by mail, with no personal contact except, perhaps, for periodically leaving materials with the receptionist up front along with mailing them in at one near where I lived. I won't belabor the point, except that my younger colleagues were called in and I was not. I had at least one friend close to my age who was better qualfied than me who had the same experience.

 

[Lear70]

Bobbysamd,

Can I offer you a little advice? First, I have been actively involved in the recruiting process here at Pinnacle three times, both more by accident than design, at the last two AIR, Inc career fairs (the HUGE lines combined with only two people to screen resumes and talk to people while I was there to press flesh with SWA, JB, AirTran, etc - I'm on good terms with the HR people, they saw me, and I was drafted) and the Women In Aviation seminar in Nashville in 2002 (I live in BNA and was off and the girl who was supposed to come down had to fly - short staffing as usual).

Afterwards, we were looking at resumes and weeding out the ones we had marked good or bad for whatever reason, and I was SPECIFICALLY INSTRUCTED that if there were any age, race, or religion comments on ANY resume, that I was to throw it away no matter how good it was. The EEOC would fine them huge amounts of $$$ if they found those on archive.

For an application to a U.S. Human Resources department, DO NOT put your age, date of birth, or race information on your resume. They are required by most laws to either black it out or (more often) trash it.

That said, if you truly believe age to be an issue in recruiting (and I'm not saying it isn't - I don't have any information one way or the other about what happens in the back HR offices), you can minimize it by doing the following:

In your work history, detail ONLY your aviation jobs, or jobs you've had in the last ten years, or both. Leave out everything prior, but bring that information to the interview. If they ask you why, tell them you knew they only needed 10 years for PRIA so that's all you put to save room on the resume. If one of the non-aviation jobs you had in the last ten years goes back 15 or 20 (thereby giving your age away), omit it on the resume you submit and if they ask, tell them you only wanted to include aviation experience.

In your education history, don't put dates, only college (or high school if you didn't attend or graduate college) name and location. This isn't lying, it's simply omitting the dates and most recruiters don't really care about the date anyway, they just like to see the college checkmark.

By doing the above, you're not lying about your history (I don't have my bartending and table waiting jobs prior to aviation on my resume - no need, it's not related, and it's never kept me from getting a job). And when you get to the interview at most carriers, you already have the job, they just want to see if you're cool to hang out with and whether you know anything about aviation; age won't be a real issue unless they know you won't be able to upgrade by the age 60 cutoff. In that case, you're pretty well screwed... sorry.

Good luck!

 

[texanpilot]

1800rvr

ATA has a 52 year old in class right now. Send your resume to them ASAP, then find someone to give you a rec. there. Lately there have been guys getting hired at ATA with no rec. ATA is hiring 100 the first quarter of next year and taking deliveries of 5 757s and 2 737s. Good luck!

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Gentleman,

Three yrs ago when I was hired by Air Wisconsin there was a gentleman in my class that was 57yrs old, that's right folks 57!!! He just got his capt bid and not too soon I might add because the 60 rule is on his trail. I wish him all the best and hope that when 60 does find him in a few months so does Net Jets with the challenger type rating in his pocket!!!!

WD.

 

[bobbysamd]

Resume gamesmanship v. application completion gamesmanship

That said, if you truly believe age to be an issue in recruiting (and I'm not saying it isn't - I don't have any information one way or the other about what happens in the back HR offices), you can minimize it by doing the following:

In your work history, detail ONLY your aviation jobs, or jobs you've had in the last ten years, or both. Leave out everything prior, but bring that information to the interview . . . . . If one of the non-aviation jobs you had in the last ten years goes back 15 or 20 (thereby giving your age away), omit it on the resume you submit and if they ask, tell them you only wanted to include aviation experience . . . . In your education history, don't put dates, only college (or high school if you didn't attend or graduate college) name and location . . . . By doing the above, you're not lying about your history . . .

That is all interesting advice. But what do you do when the application form asks for a complete job history and dates in the school history sections? I see no alternative but filling them in. That goes to the philosophy of how to complete a pilot job application, that a job app is a form of written exam to see if you can follow directions, and that you should never leave anything blank. In other words, if a complete job history is requested you must provide it.

Then, if you're so fortunate as to get an interview, you will be asked to produce your certificates, driver's license, etc. One way or the other, you'll be found out.

I also find it interesting that you were instructed to nix anyone whose resume referenced any form of age. I realize that the company's skittish lawyers provided that advice. Almost like non-age discrimination.

Interesting advice, however, that I sincerely hope helps someone defeat the age discrimination monster. And, once more, trust me on this one, that monster exists in one form or another throughout the realm of employment. It is not confined soley to aviation.

Let me clarify, for the umpteenth time, a point. I have never disputed that regionals, even majors, etc., hire over-40 pilots. However, and this is an important "however," these over-40 pilots are primarily very experienced and qualified people who have already been flying for years and who bring great credentials to the table. I believe, sincerely, that 40+ career changers and others who started later and whose credentials mirror those and are comparable in every way to who are in their twenties are the ones who suffer age discrimination. I cannot put it more clearly than that.

Good discussion. Maybe it will provide some food for thought.

 

[b747dogg]

Give the brother a break. 1800rvr flew the BAC and Diesel 8! I feel his pain.

 

[mar]

Two things...

One: Am I the only person bothered by 1800rvr's original post? He's offering to pay off a professional in order to leap frog the process while the rest of us patiently march thru the mud!!!

WTF?

Either this is flame-bait or...
Nah, this is flame-bait. This is his first post and in his profile he lists 11,000 hours but in his post he claims 14,000. How did he fly 3,000 hours between registering and posting? A significant discrepancy dontcha think? I'm sure he'll have a very good explanation.

I don't buy it. 1800rvr, Sir, if you're for real you should be cast out with the rest of the PFTers. A professional recommendation is NOT (shouldn't) be for SALE.

You have some balls.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two: Bobby, I haven't followed your story as close I could have but I've come to respect your posts over the years.

I used to work for man that claimed he would never hire a career changer. He had various reasons. Some made sense.

I believe the answer to your situation lies less with age and more with showing some longevity in the industry.

Don't get me wrong; some places will discriminate against age; but there are those who descriminate against the bio.

Best wishes.

 

[fly2002]

Ok ...i'm jumping in...

Ok i'm jumping in here...some people sound entirely different via email than they do in person. I know quite a few people that are extremely nice via email...but are complete D#CKS in person. Yeah...those guys have been my captains! Where are they? Flying Cargo for the bottom feeders. 135. Flight Instructing. With tons of hours...bitter.... Some have told me..."they should hire the most qualified" Ahhh....no...they just don't HIRE DI#KS!! I hear these people rant on and on. The road to a 121 job is littered with the bodies of those who never made it that are bitter. Am I an expert? No! Do I see these "dead" bodies every day on my way up the ladder? YES!!! As for the original post....although i'm sure this guys got good intentions lets face it....50 years old in aviation with no aviation buddies too call?....sounds like that "D" word i've been stating. I hope that's not true but reading these posts...well..you can never tell. Take care guys.

 

[bobbysamd]

Career-changer discrimination

Bobby, I haven't followed your story as close I could have but I've come to respect your posts over the years.

Thank you, my friend.

I used to work for man that claimed he would never hire a career changer. He had various reasons. Some made sense.

I believe the answer to your situation lies less with age and more with showing some longevity in the industry.

Don't get me wrong; some places will discriminate against age; but there are those who descriminate against the bio.

I have absolutely felt that I was discriminated against in part because I was a career changer. I have tried to make this point all along in my age discrimination writings.

I am sure that my background stumped H.R. I did not conform to their mold of the so-called "ideal" candidate. They did not know what to do with me, so they took the easy way out; they disregarded me. Or else they felt that I was not serious and branded me as a dilettante. Their thinking was that if I was as serious about aviation as I claimed I should have started when I was younger. This happened despite the fact that I had hit all the same gates as their younger applicants.

The solution to that dilemma would have been to meet me. Hopefully, I would have allayed every one of these "concerns." I say "concerns" because I feel they were an artificial bar in their minds for them to rationalize not considering me.

Having said all that, there are people who start off in other businesses but change careers to aviation and achieve their goals. The difference between them and me is they changed careers when they were younger. I did not, so I still believe there was an overlay of age discrimination in my case.

Once more, I had regional interviews. I was never asked why I decided to change careers. I never understood why they were not the least bit curious about my background. As far as longevity goes, I had been flying for nine years by the time I was ripe for the regionals. My younger colleagues might have been flight instructors for two years at the most when they were hired. They had instructed only long enough to build enough hours to meet regional minimums. Again, with flight instruction being all they had done as professional pilots.

Finally, once more I am amazed at the conclusions that can be drawn from just a resume and without even meeting or speaking with a person. Compare it to Carnack holding the sealed envelope to his head and already knowing the answer to the question contained in the envelope. H.R. clearly possesses the same power of clairvoyance.

 

[texanpilot]

Mar,

It's called "doing everything in your power to get what you want." You can, "pay your dues," while others are in the trenches duking it out to get what they want. Would I recommend someone for $$$, NO. But why not give it a shot? There are only a handful of jobs out there, and only the perisistant and clever will get a job.