Red Arrow Grievance

[SLUF4]

When is this going to be settled? There's 22 for CR7 CAPT this month and yet more people are being downgraded.

 

[bigshooter107]

We are staffed properly, did u not get the memo?

 

[Pilot Hopeful]

What does the union say?

 

[Lolikoka]

Don't be late

What does the union say?

The union says "Don't be late with your dues payment."

 

[SLUF4]

The union says, "we're working on it" but it's been like that for a few months. The memo I got says we are overstaffed and people on that other forum say SH says more downgrades in August.

 

[DrewBlows]

Asa?
.

 

[SLUF4]

yes, of course

 

[sweptback]

Nobody on Flightinfo will know. Why don't you call your reps?

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I guess his original concern is somewhat already stated on the ALPA Boards if anyone in the know cares to answer.

Glad to see an ASA thread with some balls back on Flightinfo. This place was getting pretty boring.

 

[SLUF4]

It was more of a rhetorical question

 

[meyers9163]

Keep complaining about being able to see the red arrows and watch the company block your ability in a round about way.... Until then probably let your union do their work.... Nothing happens just because you think it should. We all know better then that.

 

[Speedtape]

The grievance will never be really settled, because it has no merit. There have been no contract violations. The MEC knows that. They probably filed the grievance to quell the natives. It is what is!

 

[Abernathy]

The grievance will never be really settled, because it has no merit. There have been no contract violations. The MEC knows that. They probably filed the grievance to quell the natives. It is what is!

It is a contract violation. They put in place more restricted days than allowed. They just called them "red arrow days" to get around the clause.

 

[wms]

They don't care about QOL and I don't care about A14 and CF. Simple.

 

[buscap]

It is a contract violation. They put in place more restricted days than allowed. They just called them "red arrow days" to get around the clause.

You are correct, but I don't see us winning this one. Sometimes you get the devil and sometimes the devil gets you. It sucks, but given the overall state of things at our airline, between downgrades, furloughs, losing more aircraft soon and a terrible profit margin, we do have many other fish to fry.

And despite all that, we have much to be grateful for as far as pay and QOL compared to many of our contemporaries. Don't make me make a list.

But by all means, do take the time to chew your reps ears and beat this thing silly on the survey. It should be one of our top negotiating goals.

 

[SLUF4]

Well I have another list of things we have to be ungrateful for. I know things are much better at this place collectively as far as the operation goes, but our QOL has gone down the tubes the last year or so. And yes, I know someone will say I should be grateful to have a job-and I am-but how secure is the job really with constant downgrades and the company wanting more furloughs? Because we take it and let them have their red arrow days without much of a fuss more people are getting downgraded etc..

 

[JoeMerchant]

They don't care about QOL and I don't care about A14 and CF. Simple.

That may work in getting rid of red arrow days....As we lose more flying, there will be less red arrow days...Of course there will be more downgrades and more people on reserve.

 

[Speedtape]

It is a contract violation. They put in place more restricted days than allowed. They just called them "red arrow days" to get around the clause.

There is no contract violation. Restricted days are not Red Arrow Days.



A Restricted Day is a day that Reserve Coverage is "below" adequate Reserve Coverage and on that day no swaps with open time will be allowed, but will allow pickups and pilot trades. The switch is "OFF." No swapping can occur on a Restricted day.

A Red Arrow Day indicates that the Reserve Coverage is at or near the Company's minimum, but adequate reserve staffing level to cover "only" unplanned absences and/or uncovered trips in Current Open Time. A swap may still be approved on a Red Arrow Day. Or, if not approved on the first attempt, may be approved the next day if a swap is resubmitted.

Read your contract.

 

[ohplease!]

There is no contract violation. Restricted days are not Red Arrow Days.



A Restricted Day is a day that Reserve Coverage is "below" adequate Reserve Coverage and on that day no swaps with open time will be allowed, but will allow pickups and pilot trades. The switch is "OFF." No swapping can occur on a Restricted day.

A Red Arrow Day indicates that the Reserve Coverage is at or near the Company's minimum, but adequate reserve staffing level to cover "only" unplanned absences and/or uncovered trips in Current Open Time. A swap may still be approved on a Red Arrow Day. Or, if not approved on the first attempt, may be approved the next day if a swap is resubmitted.

Read your contract.

I can't even count the number of times I've been denied a swap for a trip on the exact same days only to see it given to someone junior to me. The reason given..."not enough reserves", even breaks it down for me and mysteriously its always the same ratio...32 reserves needed/31 available...funny how it can always be the same.

I for one can't wait for real time open time that takes the human factor out of the approval process...come on PBS!

 

[SLUF4]

someone told me that they had a swap denied and were told it was because they thought that day would become a red arrow day-it wasn't one at the time..so what say you about that one?

 

[Speedtape]

I can't even count the number of times I've been denied a swap for a trip on the exact same days only to see it given to someone junior to me. The reason given..."not enough reserves", even breaks it down for me and mysteriously its always the same ratio...32 reserves needed/31 available...funny how it can always be the same.

I for one can't wait for real time open time that takes the human factor out of the approval process...come on PBS!

I am with ya Brother!

 

[outtahere]

You are correct, but I don't see us winning this one. Sometimes you get the devil and sometimes the devil gets you. It sucks, but given the overall state of things at our airline, between downgrades, furloughs, losing more aircraft soon and a terrible profit margin, we do have many other fish to fry.

And despite all that, we have much to be grateful for as far as pay and QOL compared to many of our contemporaries. Don't make me make a list.

But by all means, do take the time to chew your reps ears and beat this thing silly on the survey. It should be one of our top negotiating goals.

I call bullsh!t on this one! Sure, we have it good at ASA, that doesn't mean that we should just roll over and take it because its good for management! We have a contract, they have to follow it. Its simple really. If you want to get the furloughs back, then making them properly staff the airline is a very good start.

 

[outtahere]

So let me get this straight, you guys think that us signing in PBS is gonna get rid of red arrow days? HA! They will just have the computer set up to deny all trades on red arrow days. Thats probably what they are doing right now.

 

[SLUF4]

I'm with you outtahere. We operate more flights a day than previous years and with less people. We had 917 departures yesterday-that's more than a usual summer day. What will this summer hold for us?

 

[buscap]

I call bullsh!t on this one! Sure, we have it good at ASA, that doesn't mean that we should just roll over and take it because its good for management! We have a contract, they have to follow it. Its simple really. If you want to get the furloughs back, then making them properly staff the airline is a very good start.

I'm no expert, but the way I read the language, they've got us by the short hairs on this one.

For all practical purposes, red-arrow days are the same as restricted days, but on paper they are not. Unless there is a line in the contract which reads "the company will maintain adequate staffing to ensure all open time requests may be honored....", I don't see us winning this one.

We got outflanked. It happens. Well not really outflanked, the language on open time requests is quite clear. Perhaps quite a few folks read something into the whole "restricted day" thing that wasn't ever there.

Is this worth further grievances? Yes

Is it something to be tightened up in the next contract? Yes

Should we fly "safe" and shut the airline down over it? No

Do I want the furloughs back? Heck yes.

Is it something that should have been better addressed in the PBS LOA? Perhaps

Do I want the airline to be overstaffed in a bad business model manner? No

 

[Tarzan]

I'm no expert, but the way I read the language, they've got us by the short hairs on this one.

Is this worth further grievances? Yes

Not much we can do. I'd rather not see a greivance happen for the sole reqason we would likely lose. Next time we address the issue be it in Sec 6 or a MOU, we'd have a precedent to overcome rather than deal with the issue without any legal distinction. I'd love to nail them to the wall on it just for the sake of it but I am afraid we'd be hurting ourselves in the long run for a short term gain.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm with you outtahere. We operate more flights a day than previous years and with less people. We had 917 departures yesterday-that's more than a usual summer day. What will this summer hold for us?

We don't staff for "departures"...We staff for block hours...Notice how we do far more short legs on the 50? I feel like I'm back on the ATR. Less block hours means less flying which means less pilots...Very simple.

You want the furloughs back...Then we need more block hours plain and simple.....

 

[SLUF4]

Well, what are our block hours and what are those compared to years past? Nobody has told us except for a long time ago we got some memo from scott about them being reduced. I haven't seen anything concrete.

 

[Speedtape]

So let me get this straight, you guys think that us signing in PBS is gonna get rid of red arrow days? HA! They will just have the computer set up to deny all trades on red arrow days. Thats probably what they are doing right now.

Red Arrow days want matter. There will not be any Open time to swap because PBS eliminates Open Time to almost none!

 

[mtsupilot]

If you enjoy red arrow days than vote yes to PBS. Just think how much more there will be to complain about if PBS passes.