Realistic contract pilot options

[airbaker]

Got a question for the more experienced corporate guys here: I'm a furloughed pilot with a major (yeah, I know I'm wearing the scarlet letter "A"). I have the ability to get funding for a type (most likely a Citation 500 series) through my unemployment.

Just wanted to know if it was at all realistic to try to find some contract work, coming out of school with a type, but no time in type. I have lots of turbojet time, over 6000 hrs, 1000 PIC turbine, but no corporate. Any suggestions? I live in the L.A. area, so there's lots of charter departments to deal with. Does it matter where I get the type? (I'm not sure if I'll be able to get funding for an expensive type-rating course like Flightsafety) What kind of pay can you expect as a contract pilot out on the West Coast for either right or left seat flying?

Thanks for any and all suggestions.

 

[hawkerjet]

One major concern is how long do you expect to be out? Many companies in the LA area are hiring the furloughed folks because it could be two to three years before they can expect a call back. Talk to your prospective employer and offer them the money given to you for a type and let the company pay the rest. This way you can offer the company temporary services at a greatly reduced training cost and allows you the flexibility of picking the aircraft the company already flies. There are many companies at SNA, VNY, BUR,ONT.

 

[CL60]

types and pay

airbaker,

hawkerjet's solution of offering a prospective contract employer financial help in training you is interesting. If you can pull it off, I'll be impressed. It is a compromise between buying your way into a job by offseting the opreators training expenses, and asking an operator to pay for your training when you have no experience.

Free or funded ratings can be a bit of a curse to guys in your position. (Not to mention the scarlet letter... seriously). The other pilots you fly with may carry some animosity toward you if they knew you bought your way into a job they busted their humps for. (Contract or not). Using corporate aviation as a fall back position until you get recalled might not sit well with many hard core corp. types...

Although making an equitable trade with a prospective employer can be financially good for both parties involved, you could be making a mistake by offering up your training freebie in advance. Some C/P's and/or D/O's might look at you with disdain, especially if they had to come up through the ranks the hard way. (You don't have to tell anyone how you obtained your financing). If they are only interested in the financial aspects of your offer, then you have to question their motives. If they truly want to help you out, then you may have a chance at getting started in this business.

Contract pilots have to pay for their own training anyway. Best thing to do is to get a popular type rating, find someone who is willing to pay you for sitting in the right seat, and get the experience. We all had to do it somehow when we started. It could be a long road ahead if you go this route but you could get lucky. I know many good honest pilots who worked for years before they got a decent contract business and/or corp career started.

As for daily pay rates, I think experienced Hawker captains can make $400 to $500 per day, (just an estimate). Hope this helps. If it does, next time you are on your airlines hiring board, I hope you can help out a candidate with corporate expeience.

 

[airbaker]

Guys,

Thanks for the input and opinions. First let me start by saying I'm staunchly against "pay for training". I'd like to think my situation is a little different than someone with a wet commercial ticket heading over to Gulfstream to pay for 1900 time. I can totally see both sides though. I'd hate to think someone would disrespect me because I accepted money that I was absolutely qualified to receive (in order to get me back in the workforce) I've been paying my fair share of taxes, and will continue to do so for many more years.

Like you said, contract pilots are expected to pay their own way, I'm simply letting my tax dollars fund it. I'd never go to an employer and try to "low-ball" the industry by saying, "hey, hire me and I'll pay my own way". I'm saying "would you hire me as a contract pilot if I don't have any time in type." I'm perfectly willing to continue to pay my dues and fly right seat for awhile.

After reading my response, I don't want to come across as mad or defensive. I just hope I can continue flying while I wait it out. Sometimes it takes something like being grounded to realize what absolutely fantastic jobs we really have. Fly safe.

 

[57FLY'N]

Airbaker,

Just wondering, you list a lr-35 as aircraft flown. There are numerouse opperators of lears in the LA area especially VNY. If you were going to get a type why not do it in something you have expirience in? There is alot of corp. exp. on the market right now with little movement to the airlines. I would not expect to sit in the left seat for a long time without substantial exp. in the aircraft.

Good Luck

 

[falcondrivr]

airbaker,
having a type with no time in the a/c is almost useless in the contract world. if you have a hook or a promise from some friend for work, mabey. my advice to you is get a 737 type and apply to SWA. they are interviewing like crazy and are partial to furlowed guys. trust me on this. also, a 737 type is cheaper than any bizjet type. i have a spreadsheet of all 737 schools in the usa if you want it. get on with them and youll never be out of work again.
falcondrivr

 

[airbaker]

Falcondriver,

Thanks for the response. I kinda figured it would be tough to find contract work without time in type. I do have a semi-promise from a charter outfit to fly a CE-525 after they fly with me for 25 hours. I was just hoping that once I logged a few hours with them I'd be somewhat marketable to other outfits.

In regards to SWA: I in no way want to offend any SWA pilot, as I feel they have a kickass product, but I really don't want to give up my seniority at American. Even if I'm out for several more years, I'll hopefully still land on my feet, as I'm forecast to fly Captain on widebodies for over half of my career. Of course there are no guarentees in life....I'm just trying my best to keep looking at the glass like it's half full.

Blue Skies

 

[CL60]

airbaker,

A good buddy of mine is also on furlough from AA. I think he is about 2000 from the bottom of the list however has been informed that he will be recalled this May. Hope you don't have to wait too much longer... I know how awful it is to be out of the cockpit for any amount of time.

Did you ever find any contract work?

Good luck,

 

[empenage]

You made your bed with American. But, What make you think when American kick you out of there bed, you have the right to slip into someone else`s bed at another house. If I got layed off at my corporate job would you let me come over and fly for a few months at american till my old job open up again. Think about it.
Proud to be corporate.

 

[Boeingman]

What make you think when American kick you out of there bed, you have the right to slip into someone else`s bed at another house.

Because it is a free country?

Are you one of those anti airline guys because nobody would hire you?

Be honest

 

[airbaker]

empanage,

Clearly I struck a nerve with you, and I fear this thread is now going to get way out of hand with a corporate vs airline debate. After reading your response I couldn't help but laugh as I envisioned a West Side Story territorial battle erupt. And you're right, I made my bed with American; it's a big pillow-top, California King with a down comforter.

Seriously though, I think you need to lighten up a little. Last time I checked my hours and experience don't restrict me to only airline flying. Just as you can take your hours flying corporate and go out and get an airline job (if it suits you) No doubt I'm way behind the power curve on corporate operations, but in the end we all just fly airplanes. That's the reason I started this thread; to solict professional advice from those that are involved in corporate flying.

You know, that's great that you're proud to be corporate. I sincerely think that there are definate pluses to that side of aviation, and I'm positive that the career is equally rewarding.

Good Luck in your endeavors.

PS CL60, no luck yet with contract work. I'm still fighting the bureaucratic delays in trying to secure some WIA funds for the type.

 

[falcondrivr]

airbaker,
understand what youre saying about resigning your seniority at aa. my buds there seem to think they will have everyone back on the property by end of 2003.
ive been thinking more about you finding work now. with youre experience, you should be able to find work without a type. if you do get on with a company, then get the type and log some pic.
if you really feel like getting an arbitrary type, a GIV type is the most valuable and there are 1000 of them flying around this planet and alot of jobs available now. the other two most useful types are hawker and 500 series cessna.
with one or two of these types and a little networking, youll never be out of work.
also, dont apologize to empenage, hes got an airline bug up his ass.

 

[empenage]

All corporate jobs are not the same, as all airline jobs are not the same. If you work for a good company and make good money and have a lot of time off ( It's good flying job ).

I have no interest in airline jobs and never have. We fly the top of the line equipment, passengers, and we work with the top of the line professionals aviation personnel in our department.

They treat us like executives in the company with stock options and all. I make about 185,000 per year, with out the options. We travel throughtout the world going to the best location and stay at the best places with an open expence account.

Our aircraft are kept in a hangar, cleaned everytime we come back and everythings works (not even a light bulb is burn out).

I have about 30 overnights year and I even know what happening at my kids school and who there frends are. If they have a program at school, I am able to trip change with other pilot with no fuss, as I would do the same for them.

Yes, I did try airline a long time a go American Eagle $12,000 a year and you pay for training. You had to have 2500 total time and 1000 hr multi. WOW Not bitter at all.
I took the job for 28,000 a year and didn't pay for training. I feel that I made the right choice back then and still feel that way.

Like I said, There is good and bad in all jobs. I would have to start at the bottom at an airline job now and I sure you would have to start at the bottom of a corporate job.

It just most people coming and looking to fill in at corporate job after Sept 11 want to start at the top. Don't we all. Good luck

 

[CitationCapt]

Contract work

I saw this advertisement at avcrew.com. Maybe you can fit in there:

Contract Pilots (CA) 02/26

Sunset Aviation, located in the San Francisco Bay Area, is currently seeking to enter into contract with pilots seeking part time flying duties in one or more of the following aircraft: CE525, CE550, BE20, BE30/B300, PCXII, BE400, and HS125-800XP. Attractive daily rates and per diem working for a busy charter and management company. Flights operated under both Part 135 and 91. FlightSafety/SimuFlite and current Part 135 letter nice, but not necessary. Fax resume to Chief Pilot at 415-898-9672. No Phone calls please. Don't forget to mention that you saw the ad on AvCrew.Com.

 

[beytzim]

empenage,

You have one awesome job. I think every airline pilot would be extremely jealous! However, I also think every corporate guy too!

The fact of the matter is you really lucked out. The average, I would say 95% of corporate or 135 gigs out there, barely top 100k, let alone 185k. Thirty overnights a year is far and few between for most guys. Looks like you got the best of both worlds - high pay and little work. Are you hiring?

The problem, however, is you represent the top 5% of corporate aviation (maybe 500 pilots). The laid off AA gentleman represents 50,000 pilots who work for the majors - all of them will be making 185k+, and if they live at their hubs, 30 overnights a year is plausible. In other words, you unfortunately do not represent the majority of corporate jobs out there - I wish you did. MOST corpoate guys will NEVER have a job like yours.

So, if one was to seek the highest paying job with the most time with the wife and kids - a major airline would be the statistical best bet.

beytzim

 

[banned username 2]

Actually a lot of Corporate jobs top $100k.... I know quite a few that first year pay is over $100k.... The pay has come up a lot in the last few years and is continuing to climb....

 

[charterpuke]

airbaker:

Try Clay Lacy Aviation at VNY (claylacy.com), Spirit Aviation at VNY (website says they are looking for King Air & Lear pilots: flyspirit.com), The Airgroup at VNY (website has some pilot positions open: theairgroup.com), AvJet at BUR (website says they are looking for PIC's & SIC's: avjet.com). Good luck.

 

[CitationCapt]

Check with these guys

I see by your profile that you have some Lear time. Are you current in the 35? Interested in flying cancelled checks at night across the country?

Contact Bankair, Inc. 2406 Edmond Road, West Columbia, SC 29170 803-822-8832; Fax: 803-822-8775

Talk to Randy Russell or John Dickerson, President . Periodically they need a Lear Capt. who is qualified.

 

[airbaker]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I'm working a couple of angles on my end. Hopefully one will pan out soon, as unemployment doesn't quite pay the bills!

In regards to my LR-35 time. I probably shouldn't have even listed it. I have less than 50 hours flying right seat for a 91 operator years ago.

The problem I've most encountered (besides the blank look on most of their faces once they see that I'm a furloughee) is that I don't have a type rating on the equipment they operate. I keep telling them I don't mind a right seat position at all (in fact that's all I'd expect) and that I'm perfectly willing to sign a contract to make sure they get good use out of me, if they type me. So far no deal though; there's just too many qualified guys on the streets now with previous corporate time and type ratings galore. The search continues....

Thanks again for the suggestions.

 

[Ty Webb]

Empenage- isn't that the @ss of the airplane? Hmmnnn

As a former 91/135 Corp. Capt. who just made the transition to airline flying, I can sure sympathize with your situation.

Although you will find some of the "Empenage" types who will use your situation to try to defend their career choice and convince themselves that they made the right choice, you will also find plenty of others who will more reasonably decide that you will probably be available for an acceptable amount of time and, like myself transitioning to 121 Ops, will scale the learning curve quickly and be an asset to their operation.

I would take whatever first position you can get- probably day-hire work (contract) in the right seat of anything. Once you're out there (and not committed to any one company) you will quickly meet others who will put you in touch with some of the better operators.

Don't offer to pay for the training (even if it is Uncle Sam's money) unless you are dealing with a real bottom-feeder (usually air ambulance, freight or older small-cabin jet operators). As someone else mentioned- the companies budget for training expenses, and it's not too likely you'll get turned loose in the left seat without time in type due to insurance requirements that really value time in type above all else.

You might want to consider using Uncle's cabbage to get a CE500 type, just to have something corporate on your cert. There is a guy out of Carlsbad who does cheap-cheap Citation types, but for PIC work, most insurers want to see simulator-based training in the past 12 months.

Anyway, with your attitude and experience, I'm sure you will do fine- it is just at the outset that it is slow and painful, but it will progress rapidly once you get out on the ramp.

Good luck- let us know how it goes!

 

[hawkerjet]

Maybe I wasn't clear on what I was trying to tell you earlier. Some states will give you a lump sum payment (California is one) for job training costs. I'm not exactly sure but it's in the vicinity of $6000-8500. We took on 3 furloghed pilots to shore up our needs (2 were ex employee's who were furloughed and the third was a US Airways pilot. All 3 got money from the state to help offset training costs.We know the 2 pilots from Delta and USAirways will be with us for at least a year, the other pilot already retuned to America West. I strongly suggest you look into the matter, maybe someone reading this can expand further on the name of the program and a web address for you. I guess I'm a hypocrite because I don't think this is considered PFT, I don't know, maybe because you already paid your dues or something like that, but that 's not the issue, you're elgible for some money so make the best of it. I know most of the operators around Socal pretty well and only a handful ( VNY ONT SNA) operate the 525. If it's the one at VNY be very careful. PM me if you like. You are an Airline pilot and can offer the right carrier an experienced dependable person for a short or long term contract. The more up front and honest you are makes it easier for the company to utilize your skills effectively. Good Luck...

 

[marcs60]

WIA funding

Airbaker,

I am a soon to be furloughed DAL pilot I am interested in finding out how you were able to get funding for the training. I visisted my unemployment office in FL and was told that only specific schools were approved under the program and none of the schools provided aircraft type ratings. PM @ [email protected].

Thanks!

 

[Chocks]

Furloughee to Corporate

I just went through this whole mess. I am a furloughed UAL 737-300 pilot. I got hired by Avolar after being furloughed, rode that wave for about 2 months (At least I got a Lear-45 type out of it) and then found myself on the street after UAL shut it down.

Because I was with Avolar and they are based out of Chicago, I was eligable for WIA benefits from the State of IL. They pay 6K towards a type rating. I networked with some military buds and got an interview with a kick a$$ corporate outfit in BUR. They hired me as a Westwind pilot, the 6K towards the type helping a lot.

I have been flying quite a bit. It's a 24/7 kind of schedule, but we aren't on a specific time teather and if it's 1900 and no phone call you can crack a beer.

I'm thankful for the job, the money is better than I could have hoped for with EJA or a regional and I get to fly. Most of our destinations are cool places and our customers are top notch.

Do I want to give my UAL seniority - NO. I'm probably looking at a couple years before I could go back to UAL. If the ERP thing passes I would go back on 4th year pay (Over a 100 bucks an hour) with lots of days off.

I am enjoying the corporate thing - Could see how the schedule would get old.

Best of luck - would recommend finding out how much $$ you can get from your state and then walking into a corporate outfit and tell them you can apply that much cash to a type. This way you don't get typed in something that the company who eventually hires you doesn't have.

Fly safe - Chocks

 

[CCDiscoB]

Very interesting info here. I actually find myself siding with the corporate pilots. Maybe because I'm looking to go down that route. But a furloughed guy needs to work. I hope they all get work.

It sounds like Empenage is very senior at his company, either way, sign me up. At my age I need to find a company like that.

I see you guys know a lot about companies in CA. What about good corporate jobs in the Boston/NE area. I can't do full time NYC yet because of my ANG job.

 

[501261]

Airbaker,

While I personally don't have a problem with you getting a type and flying charter while on furlough, there will be some pilots that take offense to it. Some pilots in the business jet world have decided to become Independent Contract Pilots (ICP's), guys like Jeff Beck, etc. For them this is a lifestyle choice as it combines the entrepreneurial spirit and the love of flying. Some of the top guys charge as much as $1,500 per day, while this might seem like a lot of money; they also pay Flight Safety up to $40,000 per year and other associated costs of being a true business (lawyers, accountants, advertising). I truly respect these guys because they are running a successful business.

The biggest advice I can give you is to not undercut the competition (ICP's), the going rate for Citation V captains in S. California is $500 per day; the problem is there are moonlighters that are willing to do it for $250 per day, because they don’t have to pay for training and other business type expenses. According to a recent Pro Pilot article Clay Lacy pays his GIII captains $450 per day (industry standard is $1050).

Finally if you do decide to do it don't think that all corporate jobs are alike, it would be like comparing Atlas Air to AA, even though they're both 121 carriers. Some of us would never leave our corporate jobs for the airlines, because we find it to be superior to any 121 job. Unfortunately you will probably not find any of these good corporate jobs as they are few and far between. More than likely you will end up working for a POS charter outfit. Don't let the bad experience you WILL receive from that POS charter leave you thinking that we're all like that.

 

[CXAV8]

Hire me and I'll give your company a $6,000 kickback. Sounds alot like pay for training. This hurts the salaries and quality of life for of all of us.
I.E. G-IV cpt. accepting a 60,000 salary. Demand the appropriate wage for the A/C your flying. Just my two cents.

 

[DC8Driver]

Having thousands of qualified pilots out of work is what hurts wages. Supply and demand,period.

Where should we stop paying for training? Should we make them pay for college? After our private?

When you are out of work, do what it takes to get hired. Feed your family.

If you were out of work for say 11 months I wonder what your feelings about the gov't giving you money for a type.

We all look through our own set of glasses.

 

[501261]

You know I have to agree with the airline guys on this issue. If the government buys you a type and somebody hires you because of it, more power to you. As long as you don't undercut the going rate and hurt fellow pilots because of it.

My issue with this has always been the cheap operators that take advantage of pilots. I have never had a problem with a pilot putting food on the table, it's that cheapskate bum that pays 20% below industry average and thinks it makes any difference in the cost of operating an airplane!

 

[Ty Webb]

Look guys, it's pretty simple-

Get hired on your own merits. If you qualify for a program, then let them know it, but don't make it an inducement to hire you over someone else. Use your head. If you come with Uncle Sam's $6,000. check towards your training, whats to stop some other guy with bucks in the bank to get wind of it and to offer $7,000. to hire him instead, and then the company decides that pilots are flying whores and makes it a requirement for wll pilots to pay for their training.

Don;t screw things up by lowering the bar for your fellow pilots.

I'll tell you this- quality operators already budget in their training costs per employee, but the bottom-feeders are always looking to cut out a few thousand here and there, especially when it comes to their pilots- wshen you start waving your checkbook around, you start attracting the bottom-feeder companies, so be forewarned.

If you went to my old employer, and offered to pay part of your own training costs, you would be shown the door in a hurry.

 

[DC8Driver]

Ty Webb:

Spoken like a man with a job.........

Lets see....what are my options.........I can go to work for a regional for $1500 a month or I can go to work for a 91 operator at say $45K. If offering to buy a type gets me the job that costs me 15k that leaves 30k. Regional 18k....hmmmm Am I not raising the bar for myself?

To use your logic I could say you lowered the bar for us all by taking a job at a low pay/low fare airline.....B717......Airtran?
So you think you lowered the bar for UAL and AA? Nonsense. You did what you thought was right.

Again, do what you have to do for your family.

By the way, I have turned down two regional jobs......I won't work for $100 more a month than unemployment.

It is easy to to be rightous when you have a paycheck.