RAH NMB Ruling

[chqflyer]

According to our SLI Q & A it should be in effect within 60 days of Single carrier (today)

60 days from the day of single representation according to the company memo put out today.

 

[On Your Six]

DL management doesn't seem to upset with RAH, otherwise they wouldn't have recently amended the S5 contract to add 8 E170's this fall. Airframes coming from the current branded operation in an effort to increase seat density.

Also, RW, CHQ, and S5 have been a single carrier now for years. RW operates 86 and 99 seat aircraft.....so nothing has changed in regards to the "76+ seat" situation.

It doesn't matter what DL management thinks about Republic, rather what the pilot contract states about allowing feed airlines to have planes with more than 76 seats. I bet management would like DALPA to look the other way, which I hope they do not. It is being looked into I bet. The definition of "single carrier" is important, and an arbitrator should look into it for us. Our contract is pretty specific. We shouldn't be subsidizing Frontier and all of the other
Republic carriers. And, let's see what this recent ruling does to the "status" of Republic, Shuttlecraft, Frontier, etc. If the meaning has changed, maybe our contract can go to work for us. It is worth it.


OYS

 

[BoilerUP]

It doesn't matter what DL management thinks about Republic, rather what the pilot contract states about allowing feed airlines to have planes with more than 76 seats. I bet management would like DALPA to look the other way, which I hope they do not. It is being looked into I bet. The definition of "single carrier" is important, and an arbitrator should look into it for us. Our contract is pretty specific. We shouldn't be subsidizing Frontier and all of the other Republic carriers.


OYS

That's the thing though - no RAH airline that has feed for Delta has planes with more than 76 seats.

And Republic Airlines E190s with 99 seats have been flying for months already, if not years - where was the grievance then?

Still not sure why a Single Transportation System ruling (which deals with employee representation, not operations) bolsters your position...

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Still not sure why a Single Transportation System ruling (which deals with employee representation, not operations) bolsters your position...

It doesn't. But OYS is one of those Delta pilots who make us all look bad because he thinks the whole world revolves around him and that no plane takes off or lands without DALPA's consent. Ignore the ignorant fool.

 

[dojetdriver]

They might regret this! Delta's scope doesnt allow for anyone to fly for them if they operate a/c larger than 76 seats. Thats why ACA got the boot. They have been playing the separate certificate/ separate company card and now that argument doesnt hold much water when deemed a single carrier.

Partially true. But that relationship termination at the time was pretty much a mutual decision. The DelCon ops were break even at best. But the correct part is that as soon as the first Airbus flew for I-Air, it was a scope violation with DAL. However, it was allowed to continue till the removal of the ACA DelCon ops in November 2004.

ACA was one certificate, Republic is 4 seperate certificates, so Delta scope does not apply

True, reference the above. But when the DelCon side of ACA started, it was two different certificates. ACA and ACJet. The ACJet cert was actually a work around for the UAL scope.

 

[Indy319FA]

Dojetdriver is correct in his post above, however I would add that ACA/Indy looked at putting the 319s on a seperate certificate to keep the DL contracts, but decided it was not worth the cost, mainly for the reasons dojetdriver has stated above, and the cost of running two seperate operations. The placing of the Airbus on the Fly I certificate was a convenient excuse for Fly I to get rid of the Dojets and put them on Delta. Company execs were manic about completion rates in the Summer of 04 so Delta could not cancel the contract in a manner that woud leave ACA/Indy stuck with the airplanes. The DL operation ended when the first Airbus went into revenue in November 04.

Bedford has been smart enough to keep all of his large aircraft on certficates that will allow them. Everyone there has been on one list for a while, with the exception of F9, and those employees have been operating aircraft that would violate Delta scope on the Republic certificate. While this ruling could have a significant effect on the entire Republic Holdings operation, it will not affect the Delta operation because the aircraft on the CHQ and Shuttle certificates do not violate Delta scope.

 

[dojetdriver]

Dojetdriver is correct in his post above, however I would add that ACA/Indy looked at putting the 319s on a seperate certificate to keep the DL contracts, but decided it was not worth the cost, mainly for the reasons dojetdriver has stated above, and the cost of running two seperate operations.

The weird thing about that whole thing was that Delta ended up buying the ACJet certificate and letting it die.

The placing of the Airbus on the Fly I certificate was a convenient excuse for Fly I to get rid of the Dojets and put them on Delta. Company execs were manic about completion rates in the Summer of 04 so Delta could not cancel the contract in a manner that woud leave ACA/Indy stuck with the airplanes.

Actually, per the agreement, DAL did cancel the contract. And that meant that per the agreement between ACA and DAL, it left DAL holding the bag on the 328 leases. So they cancel, AND pay the leases on the planes. Even weirder? When MESA/J.O got the freedumb deal out of ATL to fly DelCon, he agreed to take over the lease payments on the planes that we all repo'd down to MYR while they sat decaying.

The DL operation ended when the first Airbus went into revenue in November 04

True, that was when the program was getting the boot. But the first Airbus flew in April, I believe DAL worked out a deal with their pilots to let the ACA 328's fly till November.

 

[On Your Six]

Dojetdriver is correct in his post above, however I would add that ACA/Indy looked at putting the 319s on a seperate certificate to keep the DL contracts, but decided it was not worth the cost, mainly for the reasons dojetdriver has stated above, and the cost of running two seperate operations. The placing of the Airbus on the Fly I certificate was a convenient excuse for Fly I to get rid of the Dojets and put them on Delta. Company execs were manic about completion rates in the Summer of 04 so Delta could not cancel the contract in a manner that woud leave ACA/Indy stuck with the airplanes. The DL operation ended when the first Airbus went into revenue in November 04.

Bedford has been smart enough to keep all of his large aircraft on certficates that will allow them. Everyone there has been on one list for a while, with the exception of F9, and those employees have been operating aircraft that would violate Delta scope on the Republic certificate. While this ruling could have a significant effect on the entire Republic Holdings operation, it will not affect the Delta operation because the aircraft on the CHQ and Shuttle certificates do not violate Delta scope.

We'll see about that. Regardless, RJs are a money drain these days, especially with over $100 a barrel oil. More has to be done to cut those losses.


OYS

 

[Indy319FA]

Actually, per the agreement, DAL did cancel the contract. And that meant that per the agreement between ACA and DAL, it left DAL holding the bag on the 328 leases. So they cancel, AND pay the leases on the planes. Even weirder? When MESA/J.O got the freedumb deal out of ATL to fly DelCon, he agreed to take over the lease payments that we all repo'd down to MYR while they say decaying.

Agree that DL canceled the contract, but if ACA had let its completion factor fall too low (the figure I remember was 96%) then DL could have canceled the contract for performance, not due to scope issues, which would not have allowed ACA/Indy to put the aircraft on DL. I just remember it was crazy that summer because of the engine issues and management pushing to get flights completed even though we had 2 or 3 gliders in Columbia all summer with no engines.

So they cancel, AND pay the leases on the planes. Even weirder? When MESA/J.O got the freedumb deal out of ATL to fly DelCon, he agreed to take over the lease payments that we all repo'd down to MYR while they say decaying.

Supposedly they were looking at Skyway and Comair to operate the aircraft when Mesa came along and offered to take over the Dojet flying and pay DL for the leases on the Dojets. The rumor was JO was willing to lose money initially to get his nose into the Delta tent. Then DL dumps the leases in bankruptcy and JO is off the hook. Not saying all that is true, but its what I heard from multiple sources.

I've been in and out of MYR several times, and the sight of those Dojets suffering a slow death is pretty sad. The Dojet operation in Cincy was the most fun I've had in this business, it was a bunch of great people with a fun airplane and I think about it every time I go thru CVG.

 

[dojetdriver]

We'll see about that. Regardless, RJs are a money drain these days, especially with over $100 a barrel oil. More has to be done to cut those losses.


OYS

They were also a money drain EVERY other time fuel prices went up. Wasn't till recently that the legacy's management figured that out. But there's also other collateral effects that cause them to be expensive besides fuel. Overall higher operation costs compared to the 90's for one, the massive redundancy they created that NWA/DAL figured out weren't needed for 2.

As far as more having to be done to cut losses, pilot contracts have proven to be on that list as well.

 

[dojetdriver]

Agree that DL canceled the contract, but if ACA had let its completion factor fall too low (the figure I remember was 96%) then DL could have canceled the contract for performance, not due to scope issues, which would not have allowed ACA/Indy to put the aircraft on DL. I just remember it was crazy that summer because of the engine issues and management pushing to get flights completed even though we had 2 or 3 gliders in Columbia all summer with no engines.

Actually, the MX issues on those planes was a nightmare from day 1 in the summer of 2000. Our mechanics were top notch, but if you don't have the parts support from the manufacturer, forget it. It's funny we fly those planes for 4 years before Pratt and Fairchild/Dornier FINALLY decide to do reduced thrust takeoff data.

Supposedly they were looking at Skyway and Comair to operate the aircraft when Mesa came along and offered to take over the Dojet flying and pay DL for the leases on the Dojets. The rumor was JO was willing to lose money initially to get his nose into the Delta tent. Then DL dumps the leases in bankruptcy and JO is off the hook. Not saying all that is true, but its what I heard from multiple sources.

SkyWay was the winner.

I've been in and out of MYR several times, and the sight of those Dojets suffering a slow death is pretty sad. The Dojet operation in Cincy was the most fun I've had in this business, it was a bunch of great people with a fun airplane and I think about it every time I go thru CVG.

I've seen a lot of the places at various FBO's across the country, some went to Europe/Asia as well as UJC in the U.S. I talked a UJC guy that picked one up in MYR and they had to repo it to a facility with the gear down. CVG was good times, but so was LGA at the beginning as well as BOS. Especially on the TDY.

 

[On Your Six]

They were also a money drain EVERY other time fuel prices went up. Wasn't till recently that the legacy's management figured that out. But there's also other collateral effects that cause them to be expensive besides fuel. Overall higher operation costs compared to the 90's for one, the massive redundancy they created that NWA/DAL figured out weren't needed for 2.

As far as more having to be done to cut losses, pilot contracts have proven to be on that list as well.

Very true about the contracts, but it looks like we along with management agree the 50 seaters have got to go, now. Our next contract opener starts soon, and this time, even with high fuel, we aren't close to BK. Here's to hoping UAL/CAL paves the way for scope reform. It's time.


OYS

 

[dojetdriver]

Very true about the contracts, but it looks like we along with management agree the 50 seaters have got to go, now.

Well, sort of. The 50's need to go for fuel cost reasons. The 70's gotta go (from "regional" to mainline) for career protection. As well as the money saving aspect of having everything "in house". Something the legacies figured out long after all the RFP awards was that it was MORE expensive to play the "regionals" off against one another in RFP after RFP going to the lowest bidder. The "regional" CEO's were saying they could do it for cheaper, only to not have it done as cheap as the promised when sending the RFP back.

Our next contract opener starts soon, and this time, even with high fuel, we aren't close to BK.

True, but don't think for one minute that management won't use the high fuel cost card as leverage in negotiations.

Here's to hoping UAL/CAL paves the way for scope reform. It's time.


OYS

They sad part is, CAL has the strong scope language of all the legacies. At least as far as it relates to turbojet aircraft anyway. They seriously dropped the ball on the turboprop language. Every other legacy folded like superman on laundry day. I KNOW, it was given away during the 90's and early 2000's when the big fat paycheck came, as well as well as leveraged post 9/11 during the BK's, just sayin'

 

[On Your Six]

Well, sort of. The 50's need to go for fuel cost reasons. The 70's gotta go (from "regional" to mainline) for career protection. As well as the money saving aspect of having everything "in house". Something the legacies figured out long after all the RFP awards was that it was MORE expensive to play the "regionals" off against one another in RFP after RFP going to the lowest bidder. The "regional" CEO's were saying they could do it for cheaper, only to not have it done as cheap as the promised when sending the RFP back.



True, but don't think for one minute that management won't use the high fuel cost card as leverage in negotiations.



They sad part is, CAL has the strong scope language of all the legacies. At least as far as it relates to turbojet aircraft anyway. They seriously dropped the ball on the turboprop language. Every other legacy folded like superman on laundry day. I KNOW, it was given away during the 90's and early 2000's when the big fat paycheck came, as well as well as leveraged post 9/11 during the BK's, just sayin'

We've heard DL is hedged better than most, and even if oil were to hit $130 a barrel, we'd be fine. That is hedging for mainline, not DCI. And this time airfare hikes have kept up mostly with the oil increase, so mainline isn't affected as much. As far as contracts go, the merger supposedly has produced "synergies" like merging call centers, ticket counter personel, gates, etc. $2 billion in debt was just paid down, and profits were great last year. The CEO just stated we should have a small profit for this year too, even with the Japan and fuel stuff going on. That could help during contract negotiations, and they won't be crying poor as much as before. I went through this at United before getting furloughed, so I have seen this before. I feel we have a good shot at some restoration this time around, and that goes for both pay and scope.


OYS

 

[BoilerUP]

The cost of oil is somewhat irrelevant; already fuel prices (for Jet, diesel and gasoline) at $110/bbl crude are higher than they were in 2008 when oil was the exact same price. Thank 1. a higher price for Brent crude and 2. refineries operating at less than max capacity for that.

As far as 50 seaters go...I'm sure DAL would love nothing more than to immediately park 40-50% of the ones currently flying DCI, but they can't due to contracts with their lift providers...so they won't. But as those contracts start to expire, look for small jet lift to be reduced - not just at Delta but every legacy with outsourced regional lift.

 

[Meiguy]

As far as 50 seaters go...I'm sure DAL would love nothing more than to immediately park 40-50% of the ones currently flying DCI, but they can't due to contracts with their lift providers...so they won't. But as those contracts start to expire, look for small jet lift to be reduced - not just at Delta but every legacy with outsourced regional lift.

Then maybe we can get DAL management on our side in exercising the language in our Section 1. They seem to have better lawyers than we do.

 

[chqflyer]

How did an RAH bashing thread turn into a Delta thread? back on topic boys. I'll start. RAH pilots scratch their butts, then smell their fingers.

 

[chqflyer]

For those with no sense of humor whatsoever, the above post is a childishly lighthearted attempt at schoolyard humor. I'm not planning on quitting my day job.