Radio Pet Peeves

[dmspilot00]

"N345 is not my tail number!"

It is if you are flying an airplane registered in the United States.

Umm, no its not

 

[El Cid Av8or]

If anyone thinks "with you" is bad... how about "witch you" ?!?!? I have heard that from a few pilots.


One thing that gets me...

"XXX Approach, Cessna 12YZ at twenty-five hundred, about 12.7 miles from the airport, inbound with information golf."

Like the .7 miles is really significant


As mentioned earlier, I don't mind the "good day," "see ya," etc. as long as it's not "123.45 see ya." If there was ever an accident (and I hope there's not) and there was a lot of radio communication going on, all that would do is cause more time and confusion while deciphering the tapes. I routinely use "Piper 123AB, frequency 123.45, good day sir (or ma'am)". I have been praised by a controller or two for this.

 

[dsee8driver]

Piss match...NOT

dmspilot00 One other thing. If I tell ATC I am "Cessna 12345," why do they sometimes call me "November 345?" It should either be November 12345, Cessna 12345, or Cessna 345, or just 345.... not N345. N345 is not my tail number! It just doesn't make sense.

DMS...I think you should read the AIM under communications and phraseology. You yourslef say it should be November 12345, well guess what ATC can and will shorten it to N345 and it's perfectly legal.. Maybe ATCER can add to this ....

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: $ 0.02

I cannot see a difference between "Citation123 checking in at FL310" and "Citation 123 with you at FL310."

There is no difference. They're equally annoying.

"Checking in?" Why stop there? Why not say "Cessna Citation 123 is checking in with you, center, on the radio, using frequency 133.07." "Checking in" is superfluous. We know you're checking in!

What's wrong with "Center, Citation One-Two-Three, Flight Level Three-One-Zero, good morning." (Yes, I know "good morning" isn't by the book. Using proper phraseology doesn't mean you can't be courteous.)


Off the subject: I once heard a flustered controller tell someone "last aircraft that called, I got voice only, no carrier." Well, that would mean she heard him, but not through the radio...

 

[dmspilot00]

Re: Piss match...NOT

DMS...I think you should read the AIM under communications and phraseology. You yourslef say it should be November 12345, well guess what ATC can and will shorten it to N345 and it's perfectly legal.. Maybe ATCER can add to this ....

Thanks for the info. I wasn't saying that what they do is wrong in the sense that against std. op procedures, but it is just weird. It's like taking out the middle two numbers. What if there is an actual N345 and an N12345 both flying at the same airport? (Please don't answer---a rhetorical question only.)

Anyway, I meant to say airport advisory before, not traffic advisory. The part that annoys me is that some pilots can't figure out which runway to land on without getting one...even when the airport has awos and/or people flying around in the pattern making their appropriate announcements.

I was thinking "Chicago Approach, N12345 level at 5000, with you" sounds a little better than "checking in at 5000" because the with-you part is more like a greeting, and although both are unnecessary, "checking in" is also dorky/corny-sounding. If you find both equally annoying or equally unannoying then you are entitled to feel that way, I'm not disputing anything.

While flying around in my little C172, I've never said either to ATC. I don't have any right to critique airline or other prof. pilots, but when a GA pilot flying a Warrior or whatever says either of those phrases, I think it is just pointless and dumb-sounding.

I think Typhoon's idea is a good alternative if you feel compelled to add extra words on the radio.

 

[Yahtzee]

It's all relative

All you guys that get upset with the "xxx checking In", and "xxx with you" calls need to log some time in a multi-engine jet with a student that has maybe 120 hours total time. I can't begin to describe how bad the radio calls from students can be, especially since the Instructor handles about 95% of the radio calls as the PNF.

Biggest pet peeve: Center gives a radio call to us and my stud has to practice the radio call in his or her head for a minute so they don't dork it up. By the time he has the radio call down in his head, Memphis is calling again. By the time the student keys the mic, he forgot what he was going to say and lets out an extended "UUUUHHHHHGGGGG....while he collect his thoughts once more and reengages Memphis with someone elses Callsign, and reads back the incorrect frequency."

If nothing else, this job has taught me to be patience and understanding. So the next time a guy "Checks in" or gives a "with you", please think of all those poor IPs out there that experience my example daily.

Here's one of the worst calls from a student and a great comeback from Memphis as told by one of my fellow IPs:

18 miles from the entry point of a low level route still at 16K feet. The student realizes he is in a jam and needs to get down now.

SP (in an excited voice): "Memphis Center, Callsign XX, requesting your lowest altitude EVER."

Mem Ctr (with a fatherly tone in his voice): "Callsign XX, I could give you Sea Level, but you're not gonna like it."

Welcome to my world.

Yahtz

 

[ms6073]

I cnat believe nobody has mentioned...

Regional Approach: Cessna 12345, say intentions?
Student Pilot: Yes, I am wanting to become an airline pilot!


More Humorous...
Approach: Mooney 12345, sir, you are number two behind a SW 73 with an American MD90 5 miles in trail. Best speed to the marker please sir!
Mooney Pilot: Yes sir, how about 150 to the fence? But I doubt we will be able to make the first turnoff!

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: It's all relative

I can't begin to describe how bad the radio calls from students can be...

I had this one student, a young lady who couldn't get it into her head that a degree of formality was required in aviation communications...

VRB Tower: "Cherokee Three-One-Victor, number two behind a Seminole on a two-mile final, cleared for the option runway one-one-right."

31V: "Okay."

That wasn't the worst, though. The worst was when I sent her ona solo from Vero Beach to Fort Pierce...a flight of about two minutes, for those of you who aren't familiar. They're right next to each other. I'd flown the trip with her a dozen times.

She gets to the end of the runway, does a very careful run-up, then says: "Tower, Cherokee Three-One-Victor, ready for takeoff at runway four. Which way do I go to go to Fort Pierce?"

[Sigh.] Well, we all have to learn somehow.

Oh, one more pet peeve. You captains ever had a first officer who made editorial comments on the radio without giving you the benefit of screening them?

ELP ground: "Hey Connection, got time for a question?"

My F/O: "Sure."

ELP ground: "Are you guys replacing that 727 that used to come in here?"

My F/O: "Yeah, now that they got their new contract, they can't afford that anymore."

Me (on interphone): "Doh! Don't say that on the radio, you jerk!"

 

[cessna_driver2]

I cnat believe nobody has mentioned...

Regional Approach: Cessna 12345, say intentions?
Student Pilot: Yes, I am wanting to become an airline pilot!

I heard that one when I was @ a 141 in Oklahoma. That was almost a classic there.

 

[maverick_fp00]

I was flying back from Nashville the other night and when I had to change over to Alanta Center... believe it or not... when I switched frequencies there was a conversation between a pilot and the controller - it lasted about a minute, literally.. by the time the conversation was over I knew the guys life from the past 5 years. So when I finally got my chance I said "Mark good evening Navajo 100XR level 8000" he came back and asked me how I knew his name... I couldn't believe it

 

[StarChecker]

I love the corporate guy (I'm sorry...but it's always some Citiation or Beechjet or something) who, upon arriving at the end of the line of 4 other airplanes ahead of him for takeoff, tells the tower he's "ready in sequence". My god, what do you THINK he's gonna say ??? I'm just dying for a controller to come back and tell him to plow over the airplanes ahead of him...and sneak ahead of the airplane on a 1/2 mile final...cleared for takeoff.

I also agree with the lights-on thing...good grief....there's no reason for your Cherokee to be taxiing around in the middle of the day with every possible exterior light on.

I also don't understand how 2-person crews with top of the line avionics packages, autopilots, FMC's, blah blah blah....can miss radio calls when one person's main function is the radios. I know you have to talk to dispatch and ramp control. I fly every night and never hear a Starcheck flight miss a radio call, and we're doing it all; with a fraction of the automation and half the crew.

 

[ATCER]

How many times have you called approach, told them who, what and where you were and said you had whatever current information is on the atis, only for them to call you back and say: "so and so, say aircraft type and altitude and advise you have whatever information"? Drives me nuts.

And while I am talking about ATC....

I also had an approach controller forget I was IFR recently. It was late and the tower was closed at the field I was going into to and after he told me to squwak VFR and frequency changed approved I said I'd go ahead and cancel - he says "Uhh... oh yeah, I forgot about that. Cancellation received."

Does that happen very often?

As for the first thing... the guy is probably searching for his pen, a blank strip, then another pen when that one doesn't write. Hey ... they're Gov't pens ... Seriously... sometimes we're busy giving info to a supervisor or on a land line and get a bit behind on things. It's not intentional...

Second thing - probably just missed it. If it was late the sector was probably combined with others. The controller is then working multilple sectors (on the same scope) along with multiple frequencies. Was just an oversight most likely. Always question things... even if the controller seems to get mad ... we know you're right when you catch something like that.

One other thing. If I tell ATC I am "Cessna 12345," why do they sometimes call me "November 345?" It should either be November 12345, Cessna 12345, or Cessna 345, or just 345.... not N345. N345 is not my tail number! It just doesn't make sense.

Here's the deal - right from the 7110.65 the final word on how we have to do everything.

2-4-20. AIRCRAFT IDENTIFICATION


1. Civil. State the prefix "November" when establishing initial communications with U.S. registered aircraft followed by the ICAO phonetic pronunciation of the numbers/letters of the aircraft registration. The controller may state the aircraft type, the model, the manufacturer's name, followed by the ICAO phonetic pronunciation of the numbers/letters of the aircraft registration if used by the pilot on the initial or subsequent call.

2-4-9. ABBREVIATED TRANSMISSIONS

Transmissions may be abbreviated as follows:

a. Use the identification prefix and the last 3 digits or letters of the aircraft identification after communications have been established. Do not abbreviate similar sounding aircraft identifications or the identification of an air carrier or other civil aircraft having an FAA authorized call sign.

There it is... that is why you here things the way you do. As for A/C type vs. November that depends on the controller but both ways are legal for us.

Some quick things...

Lrjcaptain - what's wrong with MEM ARTCC ??? Just curious (I do not work there).

dmspilot00 - I like the niners... !!! Keep em up !

El Cid Av8or - Good phraseology

 

[Patriot328]

I also don't understand how 2-person crews with top of the line avionics packages, autopilots, FMC's, blah blah blah....can miss radio calls when one person's main function is the radios. I know you have to talk to dispatch and ramp control. I fly every night and never hear a Starcheck flight miss a radio call, and we're doing it all; with a fraction of the automation and half the crew.

Perhaps because you don't have that other half of the crew babbling in your ear? Or a flight attendant calling up with a problem? And also monitoring Airinc or Delta radio. Or your running a checklist that's about 1/2 mile long (well, not in the Dornier, but some aircraft), etc...


And yeah, I've *NEVER* heard a Starcheck f*#@ up on the radio or miss a transmission.....


Patriot

 

[AHPilot]

Not really a pet peeve but heard this one on takeoff outta Austin from an inbound AA plane. Tower controller was gettin real busy and then the AA plane checks on with somethin like this:

AA: Tower American xx, WITH YOU, (for all yall who hate that) for the right side, turning base to mmmhmmhmm.......

yeah thats right, sort of just trailed off not really finishing any of his sentence.

Tower: American xx, didn't copy that

Now for some reason the American pilot was gettin real worked up at the fact that tower couldn't get his transmission.

AA: (very sarcastic tone) Said were turnin base to final, on the final now for the right....(trails off again)...mutters under his breath followed by a long and drawn out jeeeeezzz...

Tower immediately responds: I'm sorry American xx didn't copy that either could you repeat that one more time.

AA: Oh great, here we go another Texan!

Tower: Sir, are you aware that I work for the government and we keep records of these transmissions?

Then tower comes to me with a slight Texas accent, you could hear the grin across his face: Cessna 941 cleared direct San Anton, you have a nice flight, contact departure.

In the heaviest Texas accent I could manage: Y'all take care each other, we'll go to departure, thanks.

Now I'm Texan and I will not tolerate any comments made to me for being a Texan nor will I take people doggin my state. I outta get my cowboy hat, boots, wranglers and six shooter out, find that pilot and teach him a thing-a-two 'bout Texans. BTW, saw Bush on TV today wearin his nice coyboy hate for a ceremony in Washington...it warms the heart.

My pet peeve though, (just noticed it cause I wrote in down)...when I'm flyin single pilot, and I do this a bunch....controller will give me an instruction and my response always includes me and one other person that is obviously ot there, for example: "ok, WE'RE cleared for takeoff and 120 on the heading...."

Can't stand it and I always do it! The airplane doesn't count as a person...wait maybe it does....sigh....I just need to say "Roger, I'm cleared for takeoff..." SINGLE PERSON....guess I need to brush up on my english

 

[Typhoon1244]

I love the corporate guy...who, upon arriving at the end of the line of 4 other airplanes ahead of him for takeoff, tells the tower he's "ready in sequence." My god, what do you THINK he's gonna say?

Actually heard it happen at VRB:

33F: "Citation Three-Three-Fox, ready at two-nine-left."

TWR: "Roger, sir. You're number eight for departure."

33F: [Turns abruptly onto an upwind taxiway.] "Uh, three-three-fox can take it right here at the intersection."

TWR: "Okay, you're still number eight for the runway."

....there's no reason for your Cherokee to be taxiing around in the middle of the day with every possible exterior light on.

It's usually 757's and 767's that are doing it to me. And I'm not talking about aircraft that are taxiing, I mean guys who are facing me, holding short of the opposite side of a runway, not going anywhere! My policy is that the guy gets two warning shots from my taxi lights. If he still hasn't gotten his lights out of my face, I turn on all of my forward-pointing lights and leave them there.

I also don't understand how 2-person crews with top of the line avionics packages, autopilots, FMC's, blah blah blah....can miss radio calls when one person's main function is the radios. I fly every night and never hear a Starcheck flight miss a radio call [emphasis added]...

Then apparently you don't listen too well either!

Trust me. Starcheck, Delta, Flight Express, Candler...even Reach and Speedbird. I think I've heard just about everyone miss a call. This is not a joke: I even heard the Thunderbirds miss one in ATL. (Of course, I've never done it myself...)

 

[Typhoon1244]

Lrjcaptain...what's wrong with MEM ARTCC?

Lrjcaptain may have been a bit harsh, but after six years of flying across the south-central U.S., I've discovered that Memphis Center is, in general, the least flexible and least friendly of the six I deal with (Fort Worth, Albuquerque, Memphis, Atlanta, Washington, and Jacksonville.) Ask Memphis for anything that's not on your filed flight plan, and most of the time, they go into total brain-lock.

Now I'm willing to give most people the benefit of the doubt. It's possible that Memphis controlls airspace with a lot of unique features that make flexibility impractical...I haven't really analyzed it, to tell you the truth. Or maybe it's the brand of coffee they use...

Fort Worth and Albuquerque have the friendliest, most easy-going controllers of the six centers I meantioned above. Must be something about the southwest.

Tell me this: why does it take three calls to get an answer from Jacksonville center at night? During the day, no problem...but I can count on my fingers the number of times Jax has answered my first call at night!

(Oh, and you never answered my question about hearing "Merry Christmas" six thousand times per shift...do you guys hate that?)

 

[Dutch]

Checkin in

OK, elighten me. When given a frequency change to the same facility what is the proper way to inform ATC that you have correctly switched over. Many times I am told to "...maintain runway heading, next controller will call the cross-wind, contact XXX tower on 123.4" Do I really have to say I'm on the upwind for the left runway waiting for the tower to call the cross-wind so I can make right traffic for the right runway (which he already knows)? Seems like extra time for extra info...all he needs to know is that I'm on his freq. I will continue to use the terms "checking in" and "with you" as they are the most efficient way I know how to communicate the required information.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Checkin in

I will continue to use the terms "checking in" and "with you" as they are the most efficient way I know how to communicate the required information.

Really?

Again, what's wrong with: "Fort Worth Center, Airline One-Two-Three-Four, flight level two-four-zero, three hundred knots assigned."

Please explain to me how "checking in at..." or "with you at..." would have made the above transmission more efficient or accurate.

 

[dsee8driver]

Typhoon1244
Lrjcaptain may have been a bit harsh, but after six years of flying across the south-central U.S., I've discovered that Memphis Center is, in general, the least flexible and least friendly of the six I deal with (Fort Worth, Albuquerque, Memphis, Atlanta, Washington, and Jacksonville.) Ask Memphis for anything that's not on your filed flight plan, and most of the time, they go into total brain-lock.

I think Chicago Center sucks the big one!

 

[Dutch]

Re: Re: Checkin in

Really?

Again, what's wrong with: "Fort Worth Center, Airline One-Two-Three-Four, flight level two-four-zero, three hundred knots assigned."

Please explain to me how "checking in at..." or "with you at..." would have made the above transmission more efficient or accurate.

1) I never stated that the term was more accurate. However, in certain situations these terms do not degrade the communication process.

2) It is more efficient in that I limits the length of a communication, which keeps the frequency open.

3) Why don't you include your entire route of flight when you check in. Could it be because you know that they already know this information? But wouldn't it be more accurate to include this info?

4) I do use the "full check-in" you listed above but find it to be a bit much on a congested frequency filled with student pilots and transient aircraft that "uuummm" and "aahhhhh" for half a minute.

My example was for a closed traffic flight at an airport with parallel runways and the tower wants me to switch to the secondary controller. Procedure at this ATC facility is to advise ground of direction of departure to free up the tower frequency of extraneous information. They are specifically asking us to keep our tranmissions brief. Again, all they need to know is that I have succesfully dialed in the new frequency, they have a paper slip that says what I want, why repeat myself?

 

[Femur]

Not an annoyance, but a funny story....

ATC: "Comair XX, traffic is at one o'clock, five miles, a flight of two S-3's at 5000"
(S-3's are UHF only, so we couldn't hear Comair's reply)
ATC: "Uhhhh, I'm not sure... I'll ak him... VIDAR 2 what's a S-3's mission?"
VIDAR 2: (without skipping a beat) "Killing.'"

 

[U-I pilot]

Re: Other pet peeves....

Other pet peeves:

I know a captain who hates hotel shower heads so he carried his own with a wrench to change it at hotels he stayed at! Cool guy in cockpit though!

Do they still allow the wrench through security check points?

 

[ms6073]

Lrjcaptain may have been a bit harsh, but after six years of flying across the south-central U.S., I've discovered that Memphis Center is, in general, the least flexible and least friendly of the six I deal with (Fort Worth, Albuquerque, Memphis, Atlanta, Washington, and Jacksonville.) Ask Memphis for anything that's not on your filed flight plan, and most of the time, they go into total brain-lock.

Gonna have to agree on this one! Made the mistake a number of years ago of trying to depart the Raytheon FBO (or was it Signature?) around 6:30 in the evening. This was when the center runway was under construction and we got in line something like 20th or so behind a bunch of aircraft from Express, Mesaba, and NWA. Somehow the ATC specialists got our strip wrong as all the controllers thought our King Air 200 was a Beech Baron. Not only did they they take us on a 30 mile detour to the northwest before allowing us to turn south on course. Worse yet, because they thought we were a baron, until we asked for a climb to higher and enquired why we were being kept so low, they had us droning along at only 3000' the whole time!

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

WEll, I keep getting asked why MEM ARTCC is my petpieve and i'll tell you.

I fly through there quite a bit and It takes me about 2 radio calls get them to say my callsign correctly even though no one else seems to have problems, then they do wired things to my routing that really don't seem to make any sense, cause then the next controller is like what the hell are you doing? They dont seem to use proper phraseology. Im no expert but did take 3 1/2 of ATC at ERAU and did do lab instructing for riddle. Ive read the 7110.65L before and things that come out of there mouth don't make sense alot of times. They just drive me crazy. Try to avoid them if i can but how easy is it to avoid a center?

 

[avbug]

If you think a kingair being mistaken for a baron is bad, trying being in a large four engine airplane, and being mistaken for a light single.

On long trips in the PB4Y-2, we were often asked by controller about our aircraft type. Since this frequently happened with every handoff, it was easier to tell them we were a B-24. However, sometimes this got entered as BE-24 (which off the top of my head is either the sierra or sundowner, I think).

Once in Florida we were entering some solid weather with embedded conditions. Radar isn't even a longing thought in those airplanes, and I asked the controller for any weather radar advisories. He advised me to contact FSS, as his radar "isn't very good."

The FSS specialist to whom I talked asked our aircraf type. Oh, he said. Then you'll be going above the weather, anyway. no, we'll be cruising at 12,000. Well then, he said. You can't be a large airplane, because large airplanes don't cruise that low. We reexplained ourselves. He said four engine airplanes don't cruise that low. He refused to believe us, or provide us with weather information. He told us that we needed to get on the ground where it was safe, and sit out this weather.

I explained that we were a large four engine airplane on an IFR flight plan and clearance, and only wanted a weather update and any weather he might see ahead for us. This occured several times, with him talking down to us as though we were private pilots out of our league...I finally thanked him and switched back to center.

I did get balled out once for a reply ATC asked altitude climbing to. The honest truth was that I didn't know what we could get. We would climb to whatever altitude conditions might permit, but it would take a long time getting there. I replied, "Whatever we can get." That didn't go over too well. What altitude were we planning? We weren't. More like hoping, really. Say intended altitude. Anything that we can transfer from above the wing to beneath will be great...looking at darn near one hundred feet right now, sir...

 

[ATCER]

Lrjcaptain may have been a bit harsh, but after six years of flying across the south-central U.S., I've discovered that Memphis Center is, in general, the least flexible and least friendly of the six I deal with (Fort Worth, Albuquerque, Memphis, Atlanta, Washington, and Jacksonville.) Ask Memphis for anything that's not on your filed flight plan, and most of the time, they go into total brain-lock.

Now I'm willing to give most people the benefit of the doubt. It's possible that Memphis controlls airspace with a lot of unique features that make flexibility impractical...I haven't really analyzed it, to tell you the truth. Or maybe it's the brand of coffee they use...

Fort Worth and Albuquerque have the friendliest, most easy-going controllers of the six centers I meantioned above. Must be something about the southwest.

Tell me this: why does it take three calls to get an answer from Jacksonville center at night? During the day, no problem...but I can count on my fingers the number of times Jax has answered my first call at night!

(Oh, and you never answered my question about hearing "Merry Christmas" six thousand times per shift...do you guys hate that?)

Whew... I have to check this board more often... it takes me a while to read this thread and catch up...

I asked about Memphis because... well... I can't comment. I have to tow the line if you know what I mean... All I can say is it is not you...

As for Jax they have some pretty large sectors from what I understand. At night an area may only have 4-6 controllers working and only 2-3 of them on positions which are made up of numerous combined sectors. This leads to having multiple freqs, if you call there is a delay on finding who you are, and then whta freq to transmit on to talk to you.

As for the X-Mas thing I missed that in the earlier post... it must have been stepped on ...

Nah... most don't mind hearing something like that all day, traffic is light and people are being friendly. Never bothers me... hey, we're all working, why not be friendly... I'll be working X-Mas this year...

Avbug - as for your situation it is a tough one... most (including me) would have to look up your plane... I would have NO idea what it is. In a situation like yours the correct way for us is to have the preceding facility pass the info about you on the land line... that does not always happen... for a variety of reasons. As for FSS I can't help ya there... I got into it with them on the phone once... called for a wx briefing and got lectured on the proper way to ask for a briefing...

 

[414Flyer]

Okay here is one more.

Why ".... on the meter" , in regards to reading back altimeter setting?

 

[FatesPilot]

Heard at Palo Alto, CA

*spoken with a gruff old man's voice*

From the guy in the bird to the guy in the tower
You're up there, I'm down here
Give me the word and I'll give her the power!

 

[Typhoon1244]

Okay here is one more. Why "... on the meter," in regards to reading back altimeter setting?

Just laziness. I'm guilty of this one, too...although I don't find it as annoying as "on the hold."

 

[MetroSheriff]

Re: Heard at Palo Alto, CA

[BFrom the guy in the bird to the guy in the tower
You're up there, I'm down here
Give me the word and I'll give her the power! [/B]

DORK