RAA or Gulfstream?

[taxicabdriver]

Would a 2000 hour CFI be any better prepared that spent 90% of his time in a C152 versus a MAPD grad? I think not......


I agree with you 100% on this. I respect your point of view, I was just expressing mine. You have probably been in this industry longer than me, and the following is just my guess. A lot of the MAPD guys that I have run across have spent their entire time in TRAINING until they get to the airline job. All of their time is spent with someone looking over thier shoulder or there for them if they ever have anything go wrong, or get snagged up in nasty weather/ifr. I think that single pilot ifr is a very good quality to have under your belt....most of them have litte or no ifr, let alone single pilot ifr that will give you the confidence to know you can do it yourself if your other pilot zonks out. All those "simulated" emergencies that you do in a simulator are exactly that....not real. How will they respond when something happens out on line? I have seen that most people freeze up when they have it happen for the first time for real vs in a simulated environment.

You will find very few with negative remarks, mostly those will come from guys with a chip on their shoulder that never had this option available to them.
I think you nailed this one right on the nose too. Most of the people that have something against the MAPD guys are the ones that are just jealous that someone got to the airlines before they did. Looking back I probably should have just kept that last post to myself.....didn't mean to offend anyone on the board.

 

[taxicabdriver]

One other note that I didn't mention on the MAPD guys....I don't know a whole lot of them, but when you meet someone with 300 hours total time and they are flying a jet.....they tend to get a big head on their shoulders and think they are better than everyone else that has spent a few years in the corporate world not getting much time, building their experience in hopes of getting a chance to fly that same jet. I know there are probably lots that are really humble about it, but it doesn't take too many of these attitudes to form an opinion about the whole.

 

[de727ups]

"I have many friends that are captains at Mesa and they have had nothing but praise with regards to the MAPD grads that they have flown with, the program, and the set up. You will find very few with negative remarks, mostly those will come from guys with a chip on their shoulder that never had this option available to them."

Hummm...just talked to my buddy yesterday who's a check airman on the RJ. He's had some negative remarks about 300 hour pilots in the right seat of an RJ over the years when the subject has come up. Never saw a chip on his shoulder, either, nicest guy in the world. My opinion? 300 hour pilots don't belong in the right seat of a pax jet. Don't bother with the "military does it that way" arguement, either. Unless you think MAPDer's come close to the US military standards....ha....

 

[bobbysamd]

Mapd

The program was well designed and worked when I was there in 1993. It was well designed because it was designed logically. Students trained in airplanes that were not altogether different than their first line airplane. They began in A36 Bonanzas and obtained their multis in B58 Barons. Very similar panel layouts and configurations, and similar flight characteristics. Their next airplane, and first airplane upon going on the line back then, were Beech 1900s. Again, very similar panel layout and configuration to the Bonanza and Baron. I never flew a 1900, but I suspect that as a derivation of a King Air, whose ancestor was a Bonanza, it couldn't be a whole lot different than a Bonanza or Baron. Back then, MAPD students got ten hours of 1900 time as part of their course. In 1993, they were also issued a 135 letter because the 1900s were operated under 135 in those days.

Yes, these students hit the line at 300 hours, but they were so thoroughly imbued in Mesa procedures that they just needed experience. Agreed, there's an experience gap between flight school and line flying. But, look at it another way. After a year of experience, they will have 1300 hours, with 1000 of that being 121 turbine multiengine time.

Now, perhaps it's different because new MAPD grads are going into jets. The course has also changed, because students now get time in an RJ sim instead of the actual airplane - and an ERJ or CRJ is more airplane than a 1900. On the other hand, the airline won't turn them loose until they pass their 121 ride.

Finally, attitude is everything. All but one of my MAPD students were alright guys. The exception was a guy who felt that he was owed. He was well known in the school, and I, as a new MAPD instructor, had the "honor" of getting him. He exhibited his 'tude to me; the Chief Instructor eventually decided that with me this individual had shot his wad and would not get "the interview." In those days, the Chief Instructor did not want to send anyone to the airline to interview who might reflect badly on the school. That was very wise.

 

[350DRIVER]

de,

I can see where you are coming from, a few bad apples will be present all across the board since we do not live in that "perfect world". I think for the most part though the success rate and track record of the MAPD program speaks for itself.

taxicabdriver,

I agree with much of what you are saying, the attitudes of some of these guys does not reflect them or the company well. I have met a few...


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[Thedude]

The only problem with MAPD is that you end up working for MESA

 

[350DRIVER]

The only problem with MAPD is that you end up working for MESA

BUT.......

Most will use Mesa as a stepping stone to build the 121 pic time and then move on. I don't think anyone is going to tell you that Mesa is a "career" carrier. 121 time is 121 time, some places you will just obtain it faster and get the upgrade. If you compare the 1900/D8 upgrade times at Mesa to the other regionals I think you will see that this is why many can justify going there. It all comes down to what kind of QOL that you want and how much money means to you.


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[plunger]

i really don't know too much about the MAPD program but would guess that the 2000 cfi would have a lot more real world flying experience and better decision making skills the the 300 hr guy therefor contributing more to the cockpit. i'm sure there is a lot of sim time included in the program in the same type of sim that these guys have to fly in the interview. they probably practice flying the same profiles they'll have to fly during the sim check. so yeah, i'd sure hope the pass rate would be high. not knocking the program, i'm sure the training is top notch. it's just that i've heard from a few regional captains that their workload is a lot higher when flying with these really low time fo's. i'm sure that's probably the case regardless of the school you came from though.

 

[de727ups]

Understatement of the year.....

"it's just that i've heard from a few regional captains that their workload is a lot higher when flying with these really low time fo's."

I was flying into DFW last week and for some reason this thread poped into my head. Funny how that happens. Anyhow, I was thinking how unprepared a 300 hour pilot who learned to fly in Farmington, New Mexico would be for such an occasion as DFW during thunderstorm reroutes. I mean, it was all I could do to keep up with ATC and feel good about myself and I've been a 121 jet F/O since, oh, 1994.....

So this is how it works, in my opinion. JO has this deal called MAPD. Good deal for him cause he makes money off it and produces bodies that are legal to sit in the seat and not cause any labor trouble...after all, where can you go with 300 hours? The FAA approves JO's scheme and the guys get through the program....meet the minimum standard to be in the seat. Then they hit the line and some poor Capt has to fly with them into less than ideal situations....like DFW during thunderstorms. Is it safe? Grey area but I'll say yeah. Does it cause extra stress and workload for the Capt? NO DOUBT IT DOES. But that's the way it is in JO land. All I can say is thank God that I'll never have to fly with a 300 hour F/O.

 

[1.3XVso]

I second the above by bobbysamd.... I have seen this program work on many occasions. You will be given absolutely nothing at all other than a "chance" to prove yourself over the 18 month period to be granted the interview. This is a pretty hard and standardized program but the bottom line is that it works and it works extremely well. They train you from day 1 to be an airline pilot and upon completion you will have around 280 to 300 hours and you will be either flying a Dash 8, CRJ, ERJ, or 1900 after a successful interview. The interview pass rate for MAPD and PACE grads is rather high. Many of my friends who went through the program back in 97/98 are now at America West, Airtran, ATA, Southwest, and others.

My hat is off to Mr. Rich Castle who proves a program like this works and it is all about the "quality" of flight time, not the quantity.

This is by far the fastest way to the airlines...

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Whats the difference between GIA and MAPD? same TT and you get a interview with pinnacle and its up to YOU to loose it? Explain in a professional matter please!

 

[bobbysamd]

GIA v. MAPD

Whats the difference between GIA and MAPD? same TT and you get a interview with pinnacle and its up to YOU to loose it? Explain in a professional matter please!

MAPD is, bottom line, a flight school. The only thing MAPD promises at the beginning is it will train you for your Commercial-Instrument-Multi and send you San Juan College for an A.A.S. in Aviation Technology. It does not promise any FO jobs or interviews, but implies very strongly that as long as students maintain a "B" or higher average in their flight courses they will be interviewed for real FO jobs with Mesa. There are MAPD students who screw off and/or antagonize staff sufficient to be denied "the interview." I had one such student.

Gulfstream no longer operates an ab initio school. You already have to have your Commercial-Instrument-Multi to be eligible. It operates a program in which prospective FOs pay for their training and are paid $8/hour during the 250 hours they are flying the line. Ordinarily, FOs are hired from the stacks of applications and an airline trains them at its expense, not the applicant's.

The differences between Mesa and Gulfstream are at least twofold: (1) Gulfstream's training is specific only to it and must be paid for to be employed at $8/hour as a FO and (2) MAPD is a flight school. Plenty of people walk in with zero time and walk out with their Commercial-Instrument-Multi. "The interview," while a major reason most people go to Mesa, is really incidental to the primary mission of the school.

 

[rumorhasit]

if you have a cfi cfii what can this mesa school offer? someone on this forum told me 11k for multi? is that true and how long is the program?

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD instructing

if you have a cfi cfii what can this mesa school offer?

How about a job? Here's a link to MAPD flight instructor hiring. Get your multi ratings before you apply. Of course, the real deal for MAPD instructors is the Mesa Airlines interview.

 

[stuart716]

read below

 

[stuart716]

gulfstream is not a bad place to go. i dont know what the price is now, but i heard it has gone up since i went there. if they dont hire you then they help you get on somewhere else (usually pinnacle). pm me if you have any specific questions. the first officer program is just for the beech1900d, you have to work there full time to be placed on the brasilia.