RAA or Gulfstream?

[JetBlast2000]

I know a lot of guys that went there as well, I disagree with you 100% about the "flight time" issue, it means absolutely nothing at all. What people like yourself neglect to realize is that whether or not you have 300 hours TT or 2000 hours TT when hired you are required to pass the same indoc, same systems class, same sim training, same oral, same IOE, same flight check, etc, etc regardless of "your background". These guys are given absolutely no breaks at all in any part of the training due to their low flight times, 121 training is no different for these guys. If they are not safe, proficient, within standards, etc, then guess what? They will not make it to the line..., bottom line. This whole flight time issue is BS since they are trained the airline way from day 1, like it or not..

350

I’ve seen a lot of your post, and for the most part I usually agree with you. But if your trying to convince people that a 300 hr vs. 2000 hr pilolt are equal based on the training you get, I find that a huge stretch. I worked at a pilot mill for 2 years and have flown with lots of 300 hr guys. I can’t imagine sitting in an RJ as an experienced cap’t and getting one of those guys. Remember, in all those flight checks you do, you only need to meet the MINIMUM standard.



JB2k

 

[bobbysamd]

P F T

gulfstream is not a bad place to go . . . .

. . . if you are one of those who would stoop so low as to buy a job. And that's what it is and what you are doing. You are paying $29,684.00 as a minimum for an $8/hour "job," which, but for being a P-F-T program, would ordinarily be filled through a normal hiring process. It's all right here on the Gulfstream website.

if they dont hire you . . . .

(emphasis added)

People do not understand that you have been "hired" at Gulfstream, at least as a temporary employee. If the place deducts Social Security and payroll taxes, which it must under the law, then you are an employee, albeit temporary. So, if you are an employee, you must have a job, and if you've paid Gulfstream for your training with it, then you have paid for a job.

Get it now?

 

[stuart716]

hey slick i understand what "being hired" means. what i was getting at is that they use two different classifiactions for the their fo's. i have never had someone say to my face anything negative about going to gulfstream. if you would have taken the time to read my post you would have read that i wasnt sure of the price. im not knocking mapd, because i have a lot of friends that went there, but do you really think that that place would be doing so well if it didnt offer the oppurtunity to interview with the airline and fly a crj? oh but wait thats different then going to gulfstream and paying to learn how to fly a beech1900 and get some 121 experience. oh and by the way there are actually commuters out there that dont want to hire cfi's, only people with 121, 135, or military experience. not knocking cfi's either because i did that too. its just that they are a dime a dozen right now.

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream

hey slick

I haven't been called that one before . . .

i understand what "being hired" means. what i was getting at is that they use two different classifiactions for the their fo's.

That would be correct - those who haven't flown off their paid-for 250 hours and the select few who Gulfstream might have hired. In any case, those in both groups paid for their training with Gulfstream - unless you have information of which I am not aware, e.g., Gulfstream hiring FOs off the street. Why doesn't Gulfstream hire more of its "grads?" Mark Ottosen of Gulfstream said it best:

RULE #1: "AIRLINE PILOT TRAINING IS NOTHING WITHOUT AN EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY . . . "

(emphasis added)

. . . and Gulfstream certainly provides such an opportunity - for which you pay.

If Gulfstream does hire "street" FOs, I stand corrected. But, they don't.

i have never had someone say to my face anything negative about going to gulfstream.

Then, sir/ma'am, you need to read. There's plenty regarding Gulfstream right here, on this message board, if you care to run a search.

im not knocking mapd, because i have a lot of friends that went there, but do you really think that that place would be doing so well if it didnt offer the oppurtunity to interview with the airline and fly a crj?

Maybe. Maybe not.

oh but wait thats different then going to gulfstream and paying to learn how to fly a beech1900 and get some 121 experience. . . .

(emphasis added)

And being paid to do it at the same time, thus making it a job, for which you paid, and eliminating another job traditionally obtained by simply applying for it. Granted, these 250-hour Gulfstream FOs are "employed" only as temporary employees. I wonder if they can collect unemployment benefits after their 250 hours are up and are not immediately hired thereafter.

What you may not be aware of is that MAPD grads originally were hired to fly . . . Beech 1900s.

oh and by the way there are actually commuters out there that dont want to hire cfi's, only people with 121, 135, or military experience . . .

That's news to me. Can you name one which does not want and will not hire flight instructors? I remember the great number of CFIs the commuters picked up from ERAU when I worked there fourteen years ago, with instructing being their only professional aviation experience. I didn't realize that aviation has changed so much over the years.

Yes, I did read your message in its entirety.

 

[stuart716]

first things first: dont think im trying to get in a p!ssing contest about this with you because that is not my intention. i call several people slick, sorry if you took it in a negative way. i dont know of any fo's being hired off the street, but i do know that they have hired captains off the street. there is a big difference when it comes to saying something on a message board where you real name is not used and your arent looking someone in the eyes. before i was hired at my present airline i would go to airinc job fairs with gulfstream and would go out for drinks with the recruiters and it came from them about not hiring instructors. the industry in saturated with pilots so the companies get to be selective about who they hire.

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream

i dont know of any fo's being hired off the street, but i do know that they have hired captains off the street.

Yes, I've heard that, too. The $64 question would be if Gulfstream would upgrade its in-house FOs, from wherever they came, to Captain. I'd bet not.

before i was hired at my present airline i would go to airinc job fairs with gulfstream and would go out for drinks with the recruiters and it came from them about not hiring instructors.

Of course. "Recruiters" will serve up anything to woo a would-be payer, including what they told you, to get you to pay them.

Don't believe everything that flight school/P-F-T recruiters tell you. Aviation has been, and continues to be, a conservative, traditional industry. It generally expects a person to build experience appropriate to each step. Maybe MAPD and Comair are the exceptions, but both have strict programs. If some mongrel school promises you regional interviews upon graduation, or some P-F-T outfit makes similar "promises," you should run the other way as quickly as possible.

 

[stuart716]

i would say that 98% of the captains at gulfstream have gone through the program. the recruiters i was talking about were from differen regional carriers not gulfstream recruiters. plus i was there telling people about gulfstream. not always promoting it but not downing it either. i just told what was going on and how things were.

 

[macfly]

I've seen this topic hacked over and over before...

My question is; If your not in a military aviation program then you my friend are Paying-For-Training, correct? As far as money goes anyway. I'm sure lots of mil guys would say, hey!, I've paid with 8 years of service, with little control over my own destination. In the end everyone PFTs.

I payed for my private, I payed for my multi and quess what, I payed for my instrument. If i want my commerical, I am willing to bet I'd have to pay for that as well. I pay every time I touch the controls of an aircraft, period.

/smarta$$rantoff

Really, I dont know much about any of these programs, so...Whats the attraction?

Going the civ route to a high paying flying job, which naturally involves working for a major, requires a lot of a$$ kissing to get there. You have to a$$ kiss to get your first job instruction or flying pipe, skyfreaks or whatever. Then you have to a$$ kiss to get on with airnet or something with more than one engine. Then you have to A$$ kiss to get a recommendation for a regional.

Bottom line, its too much a$$ kissing and some guys are willing to pay the money to skip some of those steps. Do you get EXP along the way preforming these steps, of course you do, real life flying EXP. Hell, everytime i fly i usually see something different, so flight time is a decent measurement of experience.

But, I'll confess, If I was getting airlifted and my life depended on it, I would rather put my life in the hands of a 600hour bush pilot thats flown in some harsh conditions than a 2000hr flight instructor that has done nothing but circle his home airfield 2000X. I've always been told, if you want a flying job, get the first 1000 anyway you can, after that seek quality time.

Maybe this thing with gulf should be renamed PFJ. Pay for job.

My advice which isnt worth much is this, if you young guys want to fly for a living, then sign up with the military, fly the hot stuff and let the gov PFT. I asked my father one time, which flew for delta for 32 years, if he flew with many civ trained guys, answer = negative. All X military.

 

[aeronautic1]

Wrong!!!

I'm sure lots of mil guys would say, hey!, I've paid with 8 years of service, with little control over my own destination. In the end everyone PFTQUOTE]

you obvious were too scared to enter the military. the military not only offers the best FREE flight training available on the planet, while doing so you get free housing, meals, medical, dental, vision, relocation benefits, school for the kiddies, uniforms, credit union, advancement, and a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** fine paycheck when you consider all of the above. You get to fly things that go whoosh and get to blow up things. Plus, if you enter the military at say , 20, then in 20 years of flying hot stuff, you get a nice retirement check every month plus GI benefits to pay for any transition training (if need be) plus your resume gets put in a different stack than the HUNDREDS of low time 800 hour wonders. Plus, you can fly another 20 years in a Greyhound in the Sky.

So my younf Skywalker, march yourself down to the AF/CG/NAVY recuiter, get your career of the ground... and serve your country. If you treat your military experience as a regular job, you will fare well.

 

[aeronautic1]

Wrong!!!

I'm sure lots of mil guys would say, hey!, I've paid with 8 years of service, with little control over my own destination. In the end everyone PFTQUOTE]

you obvious were too scared to enter the military. the military not only offers the best FREE flight training available on the planet, while doing so you get free housing, meals, medical, dental, vision, relocation benefits, school for the kiddies, uniforms, credit union, advancement, and a darn fine paycheck when you consider all of the above. You get to fly things that go whoosh and get to blow up things. Plus, if you enter the military at say , 20, then in 20 years of flying hot stuff, you get a nice retirement check every month plus GI benefits to pay for any transition training (if need be), your resume gets put in a different stack than the HUNDREDS of low time 800 hour wonders. Plus, you can fly another 20 years in a Greyhound in the Sky.

So my young Skywalker, march yourself down to the AF/CG/NAVY recuiter, get your career off the ground... and serve your country. If you treat your military experience as a regular job, you will fare well.

 

[macfly]

I agree, I dont understand why these young lads over look the military. In my case, I dont have 20/20 naturally so it was never an option personally. The Coast Guard does however take guys with lasik, providing everything works out ok.

If your young, have a BS in a science related field, you can sign up for thier Blue 121 flight program. C-130, and some fast moving jets, hawkers? But, be prepared for helos if your not in the top of your class.

 

[plunger]

i went the civy route for my flight training. if your going to go in the military, i think you should do it because you want a career flying in the military. not for the sole purpose of time building for the airlines. i know people who went the military route and depending on what type of aircraft you get, you may not fly much. many military pilots fly a desk more than they do the airplane. also, like someone else mentioned, be prepared for a helo.

 

[aeronautic1]

Depends on the service

In the CG you may be assigned Herks or Falcons as well as helos. They are in the middle of an agressive up grade of their deepwater and aviation assets. And with HS the key thind, I would expect some longrange aricraft.

Airforce, well, if your going airline, then this is the place to be. HEAVY IRON baby!!! Rapid deploymeny is all about HEAVY lift capability. Helos are for search and rescue; a small part of the Air Force.

No heave transports in Army or Navy however they do have Gulfstreams and a few other heavy category corporate jets.

And the training is FREE!!! Better yet, you get PAID for training!!

 

[airlinehopeful]

Considering Gulfstream

I am currently considering a first officer program like Gulfstream instead of instructing after I get my commercial and multi. I have read many opinions for or against Gulfstream and others programs like it. Most of those arguments seem to be fighting back and forth about if it is pay-for-training or not. It looks like pay- for-training to me but I could care less. Why is that an issue? Getting your foot in the door is getting you foot in the door. What concerns me is their placement success and I would love info on their placement success. They boast 90% of their first officer program graduates getting first officer jobs with them or a partner airline. That is great but I am skeptical if it's that high. If anybody knows the truth I would appreciate it. Also, If anybody also knows of similar programs that give me a good chance of getting hired withput instructing, please let me know. I am 26 years old and I have a B.A.

 

[English]

I am currently considering a first officer program like Gulfstream instead of instructing after I get my commercial and multi. I have read many opinions for or against Gulfstream and others programs like it. Most of those arguments seem to be fighting back and forth about if it is pay-for-training or not. It looks like pay- for-training to me but I could care less. Why is that an issue? Getting your foot in the door is getting you foot in the door. What concerns me is their placement success and I would love info on their placement success. They boast 90% of their first officer program graduates getting first officer jobs with them or a partner airline. That is great but I am skeptical if it's that high. If anybody knows the truth I would appreciate it. Also, If anybody also knows of similar programs that give me a good chance of getting hired withput instructing, please let me know. I am 26 years old and I have a B.A.

Duck!

 

[propilot1983]

I am currently considering a first officer program like Gulfstream instead of instructing after I get my commercial and multi. I have read many opinions for or against Gulfstream and others programs like it. Most of those arguments seem to be fighting back and forth about if it is pay-for-training or not. It looks like pay- for-training to me but I could care less. Why is that an issue? Getting your foot in the door is getting you foot in the door. What concerns me is their placement success and I would love info on their placement success. They boast 90% of their first officer program graduates getting first officer jobs with them or a partner airline. That is great but I am skeptical if it's that high. If anybody knows the truth I would appreciate it. Also, If anybody also knows of similar programs that give me a good chance of getting hired withput instructing, please let me know. I am 26 years old and I have a B.A.

Uh oh...here we go again. Where is G200 to put everything in perspective when you need him? Airlinehopeful, i feel bad for what you are about to go through on this board by posting that.

 

[bobbysamd]

Possible flamebait?

It looks like pay- for-training to me but I could care less. Why is that an issue? Getting your foot in the door is getting you foot in the door.

No, it is not. You need to realize that aviation is a conservative, traditional business which emphasizes climbing the ladder at points appropriate to one's experience level. Those who try to pull end-runs on the system are resented by their peers, who have earned their experience. Anyone can buy flight time and buy a job. Earning the experience through legitimate employment is not as easy and is why that experience is valued and is why P-F-T is disdained.

If anybody also knows of similar programs that give me a good chance of getting hired withput instructing, please let me know. I am 26 years old and I have a B.A.

You certainly can check into Mesa Airlines Pilot Development. There also plenty of banner tow operations which hire low-time pilots. Some of these operations are sleazy and prey upon 250-hour pilots who don't wanna instruct.

I still cannot get over why so many new pilots disdain instructing. For one thing, there are few non-instructing jobs available to 250-hour pilots. Could it be that because good flight instructors do not get much stick time means that instructing is not "fun" and means one actually has to work? There comes a time when one must grow up realize that one actually has to work for a living and not all jobs will always be "fun." Moreover, achieving any worthwhile goal involves some measure of work.

Go reread parts of this thread and search Gulfstream on the board for plenty of comments about the place.

 

[the_dimwit]

PFT -- A Generation Thing

I'm what would be considered an 'outsider' among your community. I am a wannabe pilot with little time (not even classified as a student pilot). I have been lurking on this board for some time, reading the various PFT posts. At first, I thought "what's the big deal? A program that gets a person from student to right seat quickly has to be good, right?"

Well, I am here to say that I recognize several pitfalls with such a program. I know several professional pilots (both cpt and fo), and can honestly say that the disdain for PFT pilots is fairly universal. One good cpt friend of mine told me a story once:

He was contracted to sit right seat and play DE for a major school (who shall not be named). He was really unhappy with the way the pilot flew the airplane TO MINIMUMS. When he was allowed +/- 100 feet, he flew +/- 90 because he could. To my friend, this was a mark of a poor pilot. Good pilots are always in search of a better technique (his words, not mine), and work hard to get procedures right every time. When a procedure turn is flown just barely inside the lines, all that says is that you strive to just make it.

That said, I see why so many low-time pilots go the PFT route. I have read countless posts lamenting the incredibly low pay the traditional routes offer. I am a 27 year old internet engineer for a major ISP, and I make decent money. The thought of making less money than a cashier at Taco Bell does not warm my heart. HOWEVER, I believe a person will do whatever it takes to get what he/she wants.

My generation has grown up understanding that the good things in life can be had quickly -- if you have enough money. Infomercials will lead you to believe that we can be rich by investing 59.95 on a book or video that gets a person really excited, but does little to provide real insight into a good career. Advertisements and flashy brochures from PFT schools dangle the "get-you-hired-quick" mentality like a golden carrot, but only if you are one of the lucky few.

Just two cents from someone who likes to fly...whenever, wherever, and however he can.

--Dim

 

[aeronautic1]

Mistake

$25,ooo dollars, you get no type rating in the aircraft and when you finish up, you will have 250 hours on top of the 20 you have listed on your profile. What kind of job do you think you can get with such low hours. CFI with Be1900 time. WooWee!! Take the total number of pilots that go thru GA and everyone elses PFT program and gauge that against the total number of jobs filled and the odds look pretty bad.

 

[stuart716]

i talked with some friends that are there after their 250 hours and they say that around 90% is a correct figure. i know that psa is there right now interviewing and they do a lot with pinnacle and they do hire people from the program to work there. they have taken delivery of at least one brasilia with more on the way. i did the program myself and it was fun and i learned a lot. hope this helps. dont worry about what people might say because the only trash talking about it is done on this board or others like it.


aeronautic 1
you have to have all you initial ratings so you are looking at finishing with about 500 tt.

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream post-P-F-T hiring

i talked with some friends that are there after their 250 hours and they say that around 90% is a correct figure. i know that psa is there right now interviewing and they do a lot with pinnacle and they do hire people from the program to work there . . . .

. . . but the $64 question remains is why Gulfstream hires few, if any, of its own P-F-T graduates/trainees/customers. Do they have so little confidence in them that they must dump their graduates/trainees/customers on other airlines?

dont worry about what people might say because the only trash talking about it is done on this board or others like it.

Before I joined this board three years ago I had been in aviation for several years. Based on the people I met in aviation, I submit that the members and users of this board and similar forums make up a representative cross-section of the aviation community. Some may participate more than others, but there are plenty of people who hold the same opinions but only lurk. Therefore, the opinions you read here would be a good representation of the professional aviation community's opinions on various issues.

Here again, P-F-T is an employment issue only. By paying for your training you are paying for a job; the point being that so many employers take unfair advantage of their employees. By paying for a job, you put your "employer" on notice that you are ready and willing to be exploited and to be taken advantage of. Is that the relationship you wish to establish with an employer? That's not my preference, but I am old-school. Finally, flying airplanes, while great, is still just a job. No job is worth buying, for the all the same reasons.

To thine ownself be true.

 

[bobbysamd]

P F T

I'm what would be considered an 'outsider' among your community. I am a wannabe pilot with little time (not even classified as a student pilot). I have been lurking on this board for some time, reading the various PFT posts. At first, I thought "what's the big deal? A program that gets a person from student to right seat quickly has to be good, right?"

Well, I am here to say that I recognize several pitfalls with such a program. I know several professional pilots (both cpt and fo), and can honestly say that the disdain for PFT pilots is fairly universal. One good cpt friend of mine told me a story once:

He was contracted to sit right seat and play DE for a major school (who shall not be named). He was really unhappy with the way the pilot flew the airplane TO MINIMUMS. When he was allowed +/- 100 feet, he flew +/- 90 because he could. To my friend, this was a mark of a poor pilot. Good pilots are always in search of a better technique (his words, not mine), and work hard to get procedures right every time. When a procedure turn is flown just barely inside the lines, all that says is that you strive to just make it.

That said, I see why so many low-time pilots go the PFT route. I have read countless posts lamenting the incredibly low pay the traditional routes offer. I am a 27 year old internet engineer for a major ISP, and I make decent money. The thought of making less money than a cashier at Taco Bell does not warm my heart. HOWEVER, I believe a person will do whatever it takes to get what he/she wants.

My generation has grown up understanding that the good things in life can be had quickly -- if you have enough money. Infomercials will lead you to believe that we can be rich by investing 59.95 on a book or video that gets a person really excited, but does little to provide real insight into a good career. Advertisements and flashy brochures from PFT schools dangle the "get-you-hired-quick" mentality like a golden carrot, but only if you are one of the lucky few.

Good post. Very astute comments.

 

[X.m.i.s.f.i.t.X]

Just say no to Gulfstream

yeah, 325 Gulfstream F/O's hired by Pinnacle in 2 years, .... man you're really taking your chances at Gulfstream. God forbid you end up in the right seat of a 25 million dollar jet with less than 500 hrs TT. Point me towards Tab express.

 

[unreal]

yeah, 325 Gulfstream F/O's hired by Pinnacle in 2 years, .... man you're really taking your chances at Gulfstream. God forbid you end up in the right seat of a 25 million dollar jet with less than 500 hrs TT. Point me towards Tab express.

Towing the party line are we?

 

[aeronautic1]

Flight Safety

Hey Guys,

Good things come to those WHO WAIT!! I am currently at Flight Safety getting my inital type in the G200 ($45K course) PAID FOR by the a/c owner.

Boy I like corporate!!

 

[bobbysamd]

Old-school PFT

Good things come to those WHO WAIT!! I am currently at Flight Safety getting my inital type in the G200 ($45K course) PAID FOR by the a/c owner.

That's the way the system has worked in the past and should always work. Get your ratings on the company's nickel, not yours.

Good luck with your training.