RAA or Gulfstream?

[Thedude]

The only problem with MAPD is that you end up working for MESA

 

[350DRIVER]

The only problem with MAPD is that you end up working for MESA

BUT.......

Most will use Mesa as a stepping stone to build the 121 pic time and then move on. I don't think anyone is going to tell you that Mesa is a "career" carrier. 121 time is 121 time, some places you will just obtain it faster and get the upgrade. If you compare the 1900/D8 upgrade times at Mesa to the other regionals I think you will see that this is why many can justify going there. It all comes down to what kind of QOL that you want and how much money means to you.


3 5 0

 

[plunger]

i really don't know too much about the MAPD program but would guess that the 2000 cfi would have a lot more real world flying experience and better decision making skills the the 300 hr guy therefor contributing more to the cockpit. i'm sure there is a lot of sim time included in the program in the same type of sim that these guys have to fly in the interview. they probably practice flying the same profiles they'll have to fly during the sim check. so yeah, i'd sure hope the pass rate would be high. not knocking the program, i'm sure the training is top notch. it's just that i've heard from a few regional captains that their workload is a lot higher when flying with these really low time fo's. i'm sure that's probably the case regardless of the school you came from though.

 

[de727ups]

Understatement of the year.....

"it's just that i've heard from a few regional captains that their workload is a lot higher when flying with these really low time fo's."

I was flying into DFW last week and for some reason this thread poped into my head. Funny how that happens. Anyhow, I was thinking how unprepared a 300 hour pilot who learned to fly in Farmington, New Mexico would be for such an occasion as DFW during thunderstorm reroutes. I mean, it was all I could do to keep up with ATC and feel good about myself and I've been a 121 jet F/O since, oh, 1994.....

So this is how it works, in my opinion. JO has this deal called MAPD. Good deal for him cause he makes money off it and produces bodies that are legal to sit in the seat and not cause any labor trouble...after all, where can you go with 300 hours? The FAA approves JO's scheme and the guys get through the program....meet the minimum standard to be in the seat. Then they hit the line and some poor Capt has to fly with them into less than ideal situations....like DFW during thunderstorms. Is it safe? Grey area but I'll say yeah. Does it cause extra stress and workload for the Capt? NO DOUBT IT DOES. But that's the way it is in JO land. All I can say is thank God that I'll never have to fly with a 300 hour F/O.

 

[1.3XVso]

I second the above by bobbysamd.... I have seen this program work on many occasions. You will be given absolutely nothing at all other than a "chance" to prove yourself over the 18 month period to be granted the interview. This is a pretty hard and standardized program but the bottom line is that it works and it works extremely well. They train you from day 1 to be an airline pilot and upon completion you will have around 280 to 300 hours and you will be either flying a Dash 8, CRJ, ERJ, or 1900 after a successful interview. The interview pass rate for MAPD and PACE grads is rather high. Many of my friends who went through the program back in 97/98 are now at America West, Airtran, ATA, Southwest, and others.

My hat is off to Mr. Rich Castle who proves a program like this works and it is all about the "quality" of flight time, not the quantity.

This is by far the fastest way to the airlines...

3 5 0

Whats the difference between GIA and MAPD? same TT and you get a interview with pinnacle and its up to YOU to loose it? Explain in a professional matter please!

 

[bobbysamd]

GIA v. MAPD

Whats the difference between GIA and MAPD? same TT and you get a interview with pinnacle and its up to YOU to loose it? Explain in a professional matter please!

MAPD is, bottom line, a flight school. The only thing MAPD promises at the beginning is it will train you for your Commercial-Instrument-Multi and send you San Juan College for an A.A.S. in Aviation Technology. It does not promise any FO jobs or interviews, but implies very strongly that as long as students maintain a "B" or higher average in their flight courses they will be interviewed for real FO jobs with Mesa. There are MAPD students who screw off and/or antagonize staff sufficient to be denied "the interview." I had one such student.

Gulfstream no longer operates an ab initio school. You already have to have your Commercial-Instrument-Multi to be eligible. It operates a program in which prospective FOs pay for their training and are paid $8/hour during the 250 hours they are flying the line. Ordinarily, FOs are hired from the stacks of applications and an airline trains them at its expense, not the applicant's.

The differences between Mesa and Gulfstream are at least twofold: (1) Gulfstream's training is specific only to it and must be paid for to be employed at $8/hour as a FO and (2) MAPD is a flight school. Plenty of people walk in with zero time and walk out with their Commercial-Instrument-Multi. "The interview," while a major reason most people go to Mesa, is really incidental to the primary mission of the school.

 

[rumorhasit]

if you have a cfi cfii what can this mesa school offer? someone on this forum told me 11k for multi? is that true and how long is the program?

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD instructing

if you have a cfi cfii what can this mesa school offer?

How about a job? Here's a link to MAPD flight instructor hiring. Get your multi ratings before you apply. Of course, the real deal for MAPD instructors is the Mesa Airlines interview.

 

[stuart716]

read below

 

[stuart716]

gulfstream is not a bad place to go. i dont know what the price is now, but i heard it has gone up since i went there. if they dont hire you then they help you get on somewhere else (usually pinnacle). pm me if you have any specific questions. the first officer program is just for the beech1900d, you have to work there full time to be placed on the brasilia.

 

[JetBlast2000]

I know a lot of guys that went there as well, I disagree with you 100% about the "flight time" issue, it means absolutely nothing at all. What people like yourself neglect to realize is that whether or not you have 300 hours TT or 2000 hours TT when hired you are required to pass the same indoc, same systems class, same sim training, same oral, same IOE, same flight check, etc, etc regardless of "your background". These guys are given absolutely no breaks at all in any part of the training due to their low flight times, 121 training is no different for these guys. If they are not safe, proficient, within standards, etc, then guess what? They will not make it to the line..., bottom line. This whole flight time issue is BS since they are trained the airline way from day 1, like it or not..

350

I’ve seen a lot of your post, and for the most part I usually agree with you. But if your trying to convince people that a 300 hr vs. 2000 hr pilolt are equal based on the training you get, I find that a huge stretch. I worked at a pilot mill for 2 years and have flown with lots of 300 hr guys. I can’t imagine sitting in an RJ as an experienced cap’t and getting one of those guys. Remember, in all those flight checks you do, you only need to meet the MINIMUM standard.



JB2k

 

[bobbysamd]

P F T

gulfstream is not a bad place to go . . . .

. . . if you are one of those who would stoop so low as to buy a job. And that's what it is and what you are doing. You are paying $29,684.00 as a minimum for an $8/hour "job," which, but for being a P-F-T program, would ordinarily be filled through a normal hiring process. It's all right here on the Gulfstream website.

if they dont hire you . . . .

(emphasis added)

People do not understand that you have been "hired" at Gulfstream, at least as a temporary employee. If the place deducts Social Security and payroll taxes, which it must under the law, then you are an employee, albeit temporary. So, if you are an employee, you must have a job, and if you've paid Gulfstream for your training with it, then you have paid for a job.

Get it now?

 

[stuart716]

hey slick i understand what "being hired" means. what i was getting at is that they use two different classifiactions for the their fo's. i have never had someone say to my face anything negative about going to gulfstream. if you would have taken the time to read my post you would have read that i wasnt sure of the price. im not knocking mapd, because i have a lot of friends that went there, but do you really think that that place would be doing so well if it didnt offer the oppurtunity to interview with the airline and fly a crj? oh but wait thats different then going to gulfstream and paying to learn how to fly a beech1900 and get some 121 experience. oh and by the way there are actually commuters out there that dont want to hire cfi's, only people with 121, 135, or military experience. not knocking cfi's either because i did that too. its just that they are a dime a dozen right now.

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream

hey slick

I haven't been called that one before . . .

i understand what "being hired" means. what i was getting at is that they use two different classifiactions for the their fo's.

That would be correct - those who haven't flown off their paid-for 250 hours and the select few who Gulfstream might have hired. In any case, those in both groups paid for their training with Gulfstream - unless you have information of which I am not aware, e.g., Gulfstream hiring FOs off the street. Why doesn't Gulfstream hire more of its "grads?" Mark Ottosen of Gulfstream said it best:

RULE #1: "AIRLINE PILOT TRAINING IS NOTHING WITHOUT AN EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY . . . "

(emphasis added)

. . . and Gulfstream certainly provides such an opportunity - for which you pay.

If Gulfstream does hire "street" FOs, I stand corrected. But, they don't.

i have never had someone say to my face anything negative about going to gulfstream.

Then, sir/ma'am, you need to read. There's plenty regarding Gulfstream right here, on this message board, if you care to run a search.

im not knocking mapd, because i have a lot of friends that went there, but do you really think that that place would be doing so well if it didnt offer the oppurtunity to interview with the airline and fly a crj?

Maybe. Maybe not.

oh but wait thats different then going to gulfstream and paying to learn how to fly a beech1900 and get some 121 experience. . . .

(emphasis added)

And being paid to do it at the same time, thus making it a job, for which you paid, and eliminating another job traditionally obtained by simply applying for it. Granted, these 250-hour Gulfstream FOs are "employed" only as temporary employees. I wonder if they can collect unemployment benefits after their 250 hours are up and are not immediately hired thereafter.

What you may not be aware of is that MAPD grads originally were hired to fly . . . Beech 1900s.

oh and by the way there are actually commuters out there that dont want to hire cfi's, only people with 121, 135, or military experience . . .

That's news to me. Can you name one which does not want and will not hire flight instructors? I remember the great number of CFIs the commuters picked up from ERAU when I worked there fourteen years ago, with instructing being their only professional aviation experience. I didn't realize that aviation has changed so much over the years.

Yes, I did read your message in its entirety.

 

[stuart716]

first things first: dont think im trying to get in a p!ssing contest about this with you because that is not my intention. i call several people slick, sorry if you took it in a negative way. i dont know of any fo's being hired off the street, but i do know that they have hired captains off the street. there is a big difference when it comes to saying something on a message board where you real name is not used and your arent looking someone in the eyes. before i was hired at my present airline i would go to airinc job fairs with gulfstream and would go out for drinks with the recruiters and it came from them about not hiring instructors. the industry in saturated with pilots so the companies get to be selective about who they hire.

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream

i dont know of any fo's being hired off the street, but i do know that they have hired captains off the street.

Yes, I've heard that, too. The $64 question would be if Gulfstream would upgrade its in-house FOs, from wherever they came, to Captain. I'd bet not.

before i was hired at my present airline i would go to airinc job fairs with gulfstream and would go out for drinks with the recruiters and it came from them about not hiring instructors.

Of course. "Recruiters" will serve up anything to woo a would-be payer, including what they told you, to get you to pay them.

Don't believe everything that flight school/P-F-T recruiters tell you. Aviation has been, and continues to be, a conservative, traditional industry. It generally expects a person to build experience appropriate to each step. Maybe MAPD and Comair are the exceptions, but both have strict programs. If some mongrel school promises you regional interviews upon graduation, or some P-F-T outfit makes similar "promises," you should run the other way as quickly as possible.

 

[stuart716]

i would say that 98% of the captains at gulfstream have gone through the program. the recruiters i was talking about were from differen regional carriers not gulfstream recruiters. plus i was there telling people about gulfstream. not always promoting it but not downing it either. i just told what was going on and how things were.

 

[macfly]

I've seen this topic hacked over and over before...

My question is; If your not in a military aviation program then you my friend are Paying-For-Training, correct? As far as money goes anyway. I'm sure lots of mil guys would say, hey!, I've paid with 8 years of service, with little control over my own destination. In the end everyone PFTs.

I payed for my private, I payed for my multi and quess what, I payed for my instrument. If i want my commerical, I am willing to bet I'd have to pay for that as well. I pay every time I touch the controls of an aircraft, period.

/smarta$$rantoff

Really, I dont know much about any of these programs, so...Whats the attraction?

Going the civ route to a high paying flying job, which naturally involves working for a major, requires a lot of a$$ kissing to get there. You have to a$$ kiss to get your first job instruction or flying pipe, skyfreaks or whatever. Then you have to a$$ kiss to get on with airnet or something with more than one engine. Then you have to A$$ kiss to get a recommendation for a regional.

Bottom line, its too much a$$ kissing and some guys are willing to pay the money to skip some of those steps. Do you get EXP along the way preforming these steps, of course you do, real life flying EXP. Hell, everytime i fly i usually see something different, so flight time is a decent measurement of experience.

But, I'll confess, If I was getting airlifted and my life depended on it, I would rather put my life in the hands of a 600hour bush pilot thats flown in some harsh conditions than a 2000hr flight instructor that has done nothing but circle his home airfield 2000X. I've always been told, if you want a flying job, get the first 1000 anyway you can, after that seek quality time.

Maybe this thing with gulf should be renamed PFJ. Pay for job.

My advice which isnt worth much is this, if you young guys want to fly for a living, then sign up with the military, fly the hot stuff and let the gov PFT. I asked my father one time, which flew for delta for 32 years, if he flew with many civ trained guys, answer = negative. All X military.

 

[aeronautic1]

Wrong!!!

I'm sure lots of mil guys would say, hey!, I've paid with 8 years of service, with little control over my own destination. In the end everyone PFTQUOTE]

you obvious were too scared to enter the military. the military not only offers the best FREE flight training available on the planet, while doing so you get free housing, meals, medical, dental, vision, relocation benefits, school for the kiddies, uniforms, credit union, advancement, and a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** fine paycheck when you consider all of the above. You get to fly things that go whoosh and get to blow up things. Plus, if you enter the military at say , 20, then in 20 years of flying hot stuff, you get a nice retirement check every month plus GI benefits to pay for any transition training (if need be) plus your resume gets put in a different stack than the HUNDREDS of low time 800 hour wonders. Plus, you can fly another 20 years in a Greyhound in the Sky.

So my younf Skywalker, march yourself down to the AF/CG/NAVY recuiter, get your career of the ground... and serve your country. If you treat your military experience as a regular job, you will fare well.

 

[aeronautic1]

Wrong!!!

I'm sure lots of mil guys would say, hey!, I've paid with 8 years of service, with little control over my own destination. In the end everyone PFTQUOTE]

you obvious were too scared to enter the military. the military not only offers the best FREE flight training available on the planet, while doing so you get free housing, meals, medical, dental, vision, relocation benefits, school for the kiddies, uniforms, credit union, advancement, and a darn fine paycheck when you consider all of the above. You get to fly things that go whoosh and get to blow up things. Plus, if you enter the military at say , 20, then in 20 years of flying hot stuff, you get a nice retirement check every month plus GI benefits to pay for any transition training (if need be), your resume gets put in a different stack than the HUNDREDS of low time 800 hour wonders. Plus, you can fly another 20 years in a Greyhound in the Sky.

So my young Skywalker, march yourself down to the AF/CG/NAVY recuiter, get your career off the ground... and serve your country. If you treat your military experience as a regular job, you will fare well.