QX -400 News

[P-Dawg_QX]

On the other hand, perhaps we should hold the line on OUR compensation and improve OUR work rules, so when you go back to the table, you can point to us and say, "see, we need to have pay at our end of the air group that is "X" percent better than lil' bro."

I won't mind you pointing to us and saying, "we need to make "X" much more than them." But I'd prefer you didn't point to us and say, "they're making too little less than us, so take some from them."

I imagine management likes your way of thinking, though.

Agreed

 

[flx757]

I think all mach none is trying to say is that the Air Group is and has been, with all employee groups, adamant about getting "market based" compensation. Some have been negotiated and some imposed, but they have not wavered at all from this stance with any employee group...and I don't see the Horizon pilots being exempt. I hope you guys don't wind up with concessions, since it would have a direct impact on my household, but we are preparing for it. If it doesn't happen, then great. I would rather be prepared and see it not happen than the other way around.

Good luck to all. I definitely hope it works out for you guys. You have my support, for whatever that's worth.

 

[Southbound]

Bob Loblaw is right on.

Mach None, Remember when Horizon 70 seat jet ca's were making $70,000 after 20 years and new fo's were making $18,240/year. Maybe not. When you guys signed your pre concession contract, with nice raises in hourly pay (with language preventing you guys the right to self help and sending disputed contract items to binding arbitration) you didn't hear QX guys saying how unfair it was that 3rd year AK Fo's were making more than a 20 year QX CA...

or what about currently how senior QX fo's make less than many Alaska FA's.....

The concessions of the QX pilots were already given, for many many years, prior to the current IBT contract.

Yes, the Air Group loves the idea of 'market based compensation' for all employees but I've never heard our managers compare our pay to that of Alaska, always to like competition with like aircraft. (though this may be worse)

Our disputes won't go to binding arbitration so maybe we can sit on our current contract for a few years and see what develops. I can't see ANY of our pilots voting to give a concession to a company making money. Especially with many glaring operational inefficiencies (our "fuel strategy" for one).

 

[captpetefam]

Agreed!

On the other hand, perhaps we should hold the line on OUR compensation and improve OUR work rules, so when you go back to the table, you can point to us and say, "see, we need to have pay at our end of the air group that is "X" percent better than lil' bro."

I won't mind you pointing to us and saying, "we need to make "X" much more than them." But I'd prefer you didn't point to us and say, "they're making too little less than us, so take some from them."

I imagine management likes your way of thinking, though.

The industry does NOT need more of the same ol' "Well, they only make this so we need to pay you less" mindset. Not with companies making money like QX.

Good luck & Cya,

CP

 

[Bob Loblaw]

I think all mach none is trying to say is that the Air Group is and has been, with all employee groups, adamant about getting "market based" compensation. Some have been negotiated and some imposed, but they have not wavered at all from this stance with any employee group...and I don't see the Horizon pilots being exempt.

Oh, I don't think anyone thinks we're going to be exempt from the attempt. I just don't think there's much of an appetite or necessity to cave to concessionary demands.

On what basis should we? Company's profitable, so a bankruptcy judge won't impose an agreement on us. We're not flying contracts for bankrupt carriers. No significant plans for growth to dangle in front of us.

We are not subject to binding arbitration or no-strike provisions. What practical way does management have to impose its will upon us? Divide and conquer might be a tactic, but I pray (and believe) that won't work. Concessions for growth and/or concessions for survival won't work.

What's management going to do: lock us out if we don't agree to a new contract? Unlike the Alaska rampers, management can't just bring in Menzies to do our jobs. Yeah, there are plenty of pilots on the street, but no way to replace 700 Cat III qualified Dash-8 and RJ pilots before the company would go down the tubes. Maybe the Air Group would like to burn QX down, but I just don't see it.

If, at the end of what are sure to be long, tedious and difficult negotiations, QX pilots reject an agreement, we'll cool off, engage in self-help, and hope whoever's in the White House leaves us alone.

Besides, on the whole market-base compensation mantra: a market for anything is determined by a high price and a low price -- a range. What's wrong with trying to maintain or improve our position at the upper end of the range?

I felt really bad for the crap the Air Group just put AS guys through. But now it seems some of those same guys think, "well we got our butts reamed -- now it's your turn." How is that a helpful attitude to us or ultimately to themselves?

 

[Southbound]

I agree.

There is some point, some compensation amount that makes this job no longer worth having. The days of making $20,000 a year for a few years just because it was experience to make it to a major are over for many prospective pilots. There are few big airplane jobs worth having, either more of a reason to make QX better, not worse.

Maybe it becomes like Spain where the Iberia pilots make current Alaska type wages and the CRJ Iberia regional pilots make QX plus wages. , closing the gap between the two and making it easier for pilots to stay at a regional job they enjoy.

 

[LT. Dangle]

Anybody who thinks the command recognition day isn't a big cool-aid event, should check out this link. I pulled this link from the IBT online message board, and I strongly suggest that everybody review the IBT message board on a regular basis as well.


http://www.ibt747.org/forms/QXECommandRecognitionBlueprint.pdf

 

[mach none]

Flx757,

Thank you for summing up my position much more eloquently than I did.

They will attempt to take, rape , pillage and burn your contract for pay and benefits. I hope you can hold the line. It will get ugly there, and I will predict there will be the threat of and most likely furloughs. They have already laid the ground work with the Q400 order and the reduction of the Q200. Will you be willing to sacrifice yourself? Maybe your classmate or best friend for more pay? It will be tough.

I hope we can hold the Horizon pilot group up as an example in our negotiations. I would love to get my money back. The reason your management team has not said anything about cuts is because they needed Horizon to run on time during Alaska's summer of love. Could you imagine the doom if the Horizon pilot group was upset too?

I remember times when 18,000 per year was a lot. I remember when FOs were making 12,000 per year and qualified for welfare. All I can say is prepare for the worse and work for the best.

 

[Sioux115]

Does anyone that is familiar with our CBA know what kind of scope clause we have? It seems to be the current mantra in the regional level to add another certificate of a/c to whipsaw the pilots against each other (ie. freedumb, republic, go jets). I don't know if it is really worth the Air Group's time to do that for our upcoming negotiations but its a possibility.

 

[Southbound]

Flx757,

Thank you for summing up my position much more eloquently than I did.

They will attempt to take, rape , pillage and burn your contract for pay and benefits. I hope you can hold the line. It will get ugly there, and I will predict there will be the threat of and most likely furloughs. They have already laid the ground work with the Q400 order and the reduction of the Q200. Will you be willing to sacrifice yourself? Maybe your classmate or best friend for more pay? It will be tough.

I hope we can hold the Horizon pilot group up as an example in our negotiations. I would love to get my money back. The reason your management team has not said anything about cuts is because they needed Horizon to run on time during Alaska's summer of love. Could you imagine the doom if the Horizon pilot group was upset too?

I remember times when 18,000 per year was a lot. I remember when FOs were making 12,000 per year and qualified for welfare. All I can say is prepare for the worse and work for the best.

I agree with what you say. I think the Air Group can/has and will slash and burn any and all employee groups to get shareholder value. Did you notice the stock price was at it's 2 or 3 year high, right in the middle of the AAG sticking a knife in the backs of Alaska pilots. It is one way of doing business I suppose. They truly have no shame. Thru good times and bad they rest on this doom and gloom mantra, can't make money with this, can't make money with that, all the while building a war chest. Good for them on having a war chest, shame on them for building it using slight of hand with all employee groups. I think Alaska/Horizon has one of the best products out there. I would like to see them grow our brand using our superior product, not by taking away from employees. A 10% pay cut for the Alaska pilots would have been 'just business', the 34% pay cut you took was personal.

The Alaska pilots pay cut was criminal but don't compare your compensation to ours. $18,000 per year in 2005 dollars is not worth coming to work for today. It is nothing and it nothing 6 years ago when I came here. FO's making $18,000 a year DO qualify for welfare if they have a family.

Pilots are worth what they negotiate. You won't see the QX pilots negotiating for quite some time, not without some serious kicking and screaming. We will sit on,in the least, what we have now because anything less is not worth coming to work for.

The AAG has no intention of world domination as SWA does. The 737-800 order is for replacement and slight growth, our Q400 order is the same. They will never be able to dangle any significant growth in front of the QX pilots in exchange for a cut because they WILL NEVER GROW. Could you imagine Alaska/Horizon announcing a new city and 15 daily departures. NEVER.

I think the threat would be to outsource our flying to Mesa or some other LCC regional. If they stoop to that, you can have this place.