Quit ALPA Now!

[CopilotDoug]

provide examples because this is a typical blanket statement.

What was Dave Bencke's starting pay when he formed ALPA? Compare and contrast to Prater's pay today.

 

[WayBack]

So you are saying that you're a Semi...?


It must still bother you when industry outsiders ask if you are building your hours to go work for the airlines.... and what do you think of Sully.

Also, I don't just tell random strangers I'm a pilot. Really, only my family and friends know. If anyone else asks I tell them I'm a janitor at our high school.
I'm not one of those people who think I'm more important because I can fly an airplane. Also, I don't need to compensate for any certain body parts.

That being said, I have to get back to my daily yoga, it sooths the body, mind and soul.....plus my personal yoga instructor has a GREAT tooshy!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Also, if the one common union got together, came up with one level of pay across the board, then it would be harder for management to whipsaw.
But, the politicians at ALPA don't think that's how a union operates.

Let's explore this a bit further because it is about the only mature thing you have posted even though it is a failed idea.

One common union... that would be and is ALPA.... so the problem is non union and in house unions that are not a part of ALPA.

One level of pay across the board? How to accomplish this? You've provided no level of discussion as to why. Here are the difficulties:

Each MEC is its own autonomous unit. To get one level of pay, who would negotiate it? And why would an MEC allow others to negotiate on its behalf?

How is this pay determined? Hourly rate by aircraft? Or status pay like UPS?

Let's say it is by aircraft and we'll use the B737 (and we'll assume UAL hadn't rid themselves of their B737s). If you look at the pay comparisons between CAL, DAL, UAL and AMR, pay is based in part on work rules. Whereas one pilot group might have a lower hourly rate but better rigs or soft time, another group might have a higher rate with weaker soft pay... yet in the end they may make the same amount. Simple example for discussion.

So... back to one level of pay. How does that apply? Also, what about Alaska and other B737 operators who have different business models? SWA? What about Sun Country? Some business models might not be able to pay the same amount as DAL... (even though they should).

Does one level of pay also mean retirement funds? B Plans? One pilot group might choose to take a lower hourly rate for more money into their retirement funds.

So easy to say.... but what it really being said here is, you want to pull down and penalize the best paying rates that a pilot group worked hard to negotiate for.... surely you are not saying that one level of pay is the whatever is the highest B737 pay out there right now? If so, how wold you mandate that all other companies increase their pay rates?

You could really make yourself look foolish and say that ALPA should do a SOS.... If you did, at least you would be recognizing ALPA as the union to do something... meaning others are not relevant.


Each pilot group is paid by each company. Does each company get to send in its own negotiator? If not, what will obligate a company to increase its pay rates simply because a union negotiated one level of pay? Who would the union negotiate with? The ATA?


Again... it is so easy to make a broad brush idea..... it is quite another to actually make it happen.

 

[WayBack]

Let's explore this a bit further because

No, let's not. Because I really don't have the time to bicker about this. You must be a furloughed guy with all the time you spend on here. Should you be in the MEC office working for the pilots?

it is about the only mature thing you have posted even though it is a failed idea.

Please send me the link to the "How to be a professional mature pilot". I bet step 1 is grow a mustache, step 2 would be inserting a pole where the sun don't shine.

Again... it is so easy to make a broad brush idea..... it is quite another to actually make it happen.

More proof ALPA refuses to change. Everyone else is painting with an airbrush because it's a nicer finish in a 1/3 of the time. ALPA is still using brushes.
You are aware there are these called cell phones aren't you?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Simple. The more one calls out people like WayBack and CopilotDoug (who have no real solutions to the issues in our business), the more immature and idiotic they look, and that makes me happy.

I'll give JoeMerchant credit, at least he served in the union and tried to do what he felt was right for his group and the industry as a whole. I personally do disagree with the whole RJDC debacle, but those who supported it, rightly or wrongly, at least had the power of their convictions behind them. JM at least was trying SOMETHING (even if it was wrong), rather than the two previous tools who only bitch and moan, but with no real substance.

And Wayback (and CopilotDoug, you are welcome to join in too, under the same rules), I don't really expect a good answer from you. But the door is open; I'd really like to see some constructive debate as opposed to the standard 'F&%k ALPA' drivel. I would be happy to be surprised.

Peace.

Rekks

Constructive debate? That's like standing on the deck of the Titanic and figuring out what should have been done back in the shipyard! Deregulation has done its damage. In the mean time, ALPA pilots are stuck with Prater's empty pep talks.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Why do you guys even waste your time with these two fools (WayBack and CopilotDoug)? Just put them on your ignore list and be done with them. They have nothing to contribute and are probably just Ford & Harrison hired hacks.

Sorry man, you lost any and all credibility when you hired on with GIA.

 

[WayBack]

Sorry man, you lost any and all credibility when you hired on with GIA.

Correction : put a paid pilot out of a job by paying to sit in that seat.
But it's ok, he's now fighting for pilot pay. There is even a video of him speaking to the camera. PFT128, just one tip for you. The reason your collar bends outwards in the middle like that, is because it's too tight. Two choices. Get some medicine for that goiter or buy a bigger shirt.

 

[Nevets]

Again, that's very debatable. Lot's of things need to be fixed, very important things, such as rest, duty, and pay. Sure, ALPA has been working on all of those things for a while, but have yet to pull the trigger and get any of them changed.
Well, except for pay. They do a good job agreeing with pay cuts.

Lots of things indeed need to be changed. But if ALPA wasn't trying to change them, who would? Certainly airline managments don't want to give us more rest, less duty, better work rules and pay, etc. You seem to imply that ALPA wants us to take pay cuts. That shouldn't make sense to you since you seem to think that everything ALPA does is for more dues money.

While simultaneously taking measures to protect the pay (if not raising it) of the ALPA officers.

The president is the only officer that is paid a salary.

How is it flawed? ALPA has been working on rest rules ever since my relatives started flying in the 1960's.
They agreed on those rules, and now they're only making progress on new rules because Congress is pushing for it. Otherwise ALPA has no power to push across a new set of rules, otherwise they would have done it years ago.
ALPA is also RLA....which is completely outdated.

They are making progress because there is now leverage they can use to help create the new regs. Before this accident, there was little possibility to "force" congress or the administration to do anything.

ALPA is also looking at trying to change the RLA, because they now have some possible leverage to do it.

Undeniable. How many times has Prater been invited onto News Networks and TV Shows to voice the plight of the industry and inform the flying public?

Point goes to Sully.

How many times has Sully been invited to the White House, FAA headquarters, or Congress to give testimony on behalf of ALL airline pilots?

I did work for the local when I was at an ALPA carrier, and I saw the BS from behind the scene. The man hiding behind the curtain, he had this saying it went like this : "Ok, this is what we're going to tell them...." and then it was followed by some BS twisted story. That story always contained some truth, but mainly filled with BS and fluff.
The other motto our local had was "I have a plan for your situation, but we're not able to discuss your personal situation with you at this time....". That really meant "hey, I was busy fishing the last week and haven't checked any of my emails or voice mails."

It seems like you had a bad experience with your local council. One bad anecdotal experience does not make the whole organization bad though.

Every story I have heard from those who have dealt with ALPA sounded similar. Alot of hype with nothing to back it up. If you openly disagree with ALPA, you're labled as a victim in a weak attempt to stifle your open discontent with ALPA. Don't forget, this is supposed to be a "professional" association too

Are your opinions of ALPA based solely on hearsay? Of course ALPA is not perfect because its run by imperfect people. And of course there will be bad experiences because of it. But thats not to say that the intent of ALPA is bad. We just need to get good people to participate. And that doesn't necessarily mean to become elected officials.

But hey, give it some time. ALPA will be like the radical Muslims. You make fun of ALPA and they will behead you.

So what do you to defend yourself?
1. work out and stay in shape. Therefore you will easily outrun the overweight ALPA types. Also, keeping lean on body fat, chances are they won't be as likely to eat you....unless they have some really good BBQ sauce in their flight bags.

2. Stay away from the local fishing spots and golf course. Because they're usually there spending your dues while on "Union Duty"....Instead of flying or working for the pilot group.

3. Stay out of local strip clubs. That's the only place they can see a naked woman. But even strippers think ALPA guys are creepy, because their drool gets stuck in their mustaches.

4. Grow a mustache. They will just think you're another ALPA cheerleader, and pat your tooshy...it's the new ALPA secret hand shake.

I don't understand why you have to make every post so personal with attacks on the poster rather than on their argument.

Those of us who don't drink the ALPA koolaid do want to improve our lots...ALPA can't deliver that, and only an idiot would believe they can...

Then what can deliver that ALPA cannot?

Fantastic point, Joe. ALPA is part of the system which is resisting change. Until fundamental changes take place within ALPA, we can bank on more of the same.

ALPA has also created a system to change the system and those who run the system.

ALPA is all about change. They even spent your dues on mass producing Pro-Obama stickers for flight bags.
"Pilots who want change".......But it could also mean "Pilots want change...but we're really appreciate dollar bills."

ALPA did not spend dues money on the presidential campaign.

The only thing ALPA can push around are it's current members, and they do this because they know they have no power against the management, so they have to flex there muscle on someone.
Pilots know that if they start to rally against ALPA, the ALPA reps/cheerleaders will do everything in their power to make their day to day lines as miserable as possible. They will threaten them, saying that they will make sure they're blacklisted if they want to move on to another carrier. They use the jumpseat as well, because it's one of their very few leverages.

How do I know? Because I know people at USAir who told me this stuff was going on. Also, I worked for a non-ALPA carrier and during a drive to vote on ALPA, reps were telling guys to force ALPA upon the others. It went as far as pushing and shoving on the ramp, in a threat if you didn't vote on ALPA. They also threatened the people opposed with blacklisting their careers.

In the end, the actions of ALPA reps/cheerleaders are highly immature and childish.

Assuming this is true, and I have no reason to beleive its not, you are stereotyping many members of ALPA. Not all ALPA leaders are bad. You may not think they are good, etc but that does not mean that ALPA's intent and goals are bad.

Skywest has made more improvements than any other management teams...and I have seen the worst kind of managements here at ASA....ALPA was largely powerless against the bad management we had here many years ago.

I would rather work for a great management without ALPA than for a terrible management with ALPA....I would rather work for Skywest than Mesa or Trans States....You would rather work for Mesa or Trans States because of the "Holy ALPA".....Different strokes for different folks....

ALPA is powerless against bad management. This is the major misconception about ALPA. That ALPA could and should make all airlines the best and most profitable place to work at.

Would you rather work for Mesa or Trans States without ALPA. ALPA is not the problem when it comes to bad management. I wish that all ALPA groups could work for managements like SWA's or even SKW.

 

[Nevets]

But I ask you, have you ever seen me get hostile because of someones comment? I'm so relaxed that they bottle my sweat to sell as a quaaludes.

I don't know about hostile but you seem to make personal attacks on people on almost every one of your post.

Most guys who sit around and try to tell you how much they know about everything, usually can't balance their check book.....maybe that's why ALPA has problems balancing their budget?

ALPA has a balanced budget.

Also, this would be hard for ALPA to recommend. More pilots quitting, less dues to pay for Worthless's and Prater's retirements.

Yet according to you ALPA wants us to take pay cuts. How does that jive with ALPA only wanting union dues?

Ever hang around a flight school on your days off? I mean since you've been a pilot, I'm sorry, a Profession ALPA Pilot? You ever hear what those students or instructors say? "Any job would be better than instructing. Even if it pays the same or less, it's much better there". But it's not just that. In one of my new hire classes, ALPA came in and talked to us. Gave us the "ALPA is good, Company is Bad" speech, told us how the company wants us to take concessions, or else we lose our jobs. I kid you not, people in my class, mainly guys who were first time airline pilots said they don't care if they have to take a pay cut. They just want a job flying! We even had a female instructor tell us that she's going to vote yes on the pay cuts, because she doesn't want to go look for a new job.
I guess what I am trying to say, no matter what you tell them, how much you scare them. When it comes down to them getting a flying job, they are too friggin star gazed, and don't mind if they lose pay, just as long they're flying! Yeah, it sucks. But it's true. That's the type of mentality that is ruining this industry. Look at the guys who write a check to advance their careers as far and as fast as they can. You want to fly with a guy like that? He's paid for a job, in turn putting a paid pilot out of a job. Has he done more good for the industry or more bad? Personally, no amount of time he puts into working in the union can make up for the way he made his way there. He paid to put a pilot out of a job, now he thinks he knows about brotherhood and unity? He's a sham. He's a really bad, no talent, wannabe politician only looking out for his own good....while wearing sheep clothing, claiming to work for you.

ALPA is working on this by trying to instill the values that prevents the sort of mentality you are talking about. The education committee is tasked with this and has been very active the last year. They need to be reached while they are impressionable. So that by the time they are ready for the first paying job they have the right idea about what is right for the profession and a fair compensation. But the attitude that they have already made up their minds will not change anything. Its the sort of attitude of the people who are disillusione with ALPA take. Instead of trying to do something about it, they just complain. But complaining will not do anything anyways.

I agree, but ALPA has mainlines interest in mind first. Still amazes me that ALPA is primarily regionals, yet mainline has the control. Maybe it's because mainline pay hire dues. Or that President is always a mainline guy...how about get a regional pilot in there as President?

If you knew that there are more mainline members and how the president is elected, maybe you would be able to figure out how ALPA has a mainline president. That, however, does not mean that ALPA is only for mainline. ALPA is for all airline pilots. Whether the members themselves act in that manner is a different story. I personally beleive that Prater is not just for mainline but for the entire profession.

You're partially correct. But those pilots wouldn't have taken that pay cut if ALPA reps weren't telling them that they would be furloughed, lose more flying or "thing could be worse". Those guys who buy into that crap are the ones who don't know any better and are easily impressionable. Like the politicians you strive to be, you prey on the weak, because others can see through your BS.

No one is holding a head to anyone's head when they vote. An MEC has information they gather independently when it comes to these sorts of issues and gives this information to the rest of the members along with their recommendations and what they beleive would be the consequences of either choice. Its up to the democratic process to decide whether members vote for concessions or not.

Pay cuts wouldn't be an issue if there weren't 50 different regionals flying for the same 6 mainline carriers. Also, if the one common union got together, came up with one level of pay across the board, then it would be harder for management to whipsaw.
But, the politicians at ALPA don't think that's how a union operates. Although truckers, heavy machinery and railroad unions work that way.
I know, Rez. I've heard it before, no real union operates like that. You know everything Rez, I forgot.

And ALPA is doing something about this on multiple fronts. There is the Fee for Departure Task Force that deals directly with common work rules and seniority transportability among the regionals. There is also the national seniority protocol that is dealing with a single seniority list. The problem is getting a consensus. Pilots will fight among themselves and let management continue the whipsaw.

Your right, I'm not. Since I'm not an ALPA member, I am no longer a professional pilot in your eyes.
Being a non ALPA member sucks. Because when I chose to leave the crappy airline industry, I had to go find a new flying job. I also had to discuss my own salary, since I don't have a union to negotiate one for me. These bastards told me they were going to pay me based on experience and years I have flown previously. I know, it was dreadful, long grueling work, but in the end it got accomplished. Probably not as fast as ALPA would have gotten it done, but in the end it took about 2 weeks from start to finish. Doesn't it take you reps about 48 hours to complete salary negotiation? I thought so, it's because you guys know what you're doing and are good at it.
Let's not even discuss scheduling, that sucks! 14 min days off. I tell ya, they're trying to break me! You know these guys also told me they were paying for my type rating?! The nerve! Every real professional pilot pays his way to the top, just ask PFT128. He's a real man!

So you would be for 100,000 airline pilots negotiating their salaries individually even though you feel that a flight instructors will take that airline job for the same pay or less because its better than flight instructing? Just imagine how much more depressed wages would be if we allowed your flight instructors to do the job for less than what we have for first year pay already.

What was Dave Bencke's starting pay when he formed ALPA? Compare and contrast to Prater's pay today.

I don't know, what was it?

Constructive debate? That's like standing on the deck of the Titanic and figuring out what should have been done back in the shipyard! Deregulation has done its damage. In the mean time, ALPA pilots are stuck with Prater's empty pep talks.

And not having ALPA will take care of the supposed problems that deregulation has caused?

 

[CopilotDoug]

I don't know, what was it?

Perhaps a more knowledgeable source could answer this. I figured Rez would know, but apparently he doesn't.