Quit Airline; now Corporate

[Huggyu2]

For those that said adios to the Major Airline industry and went corporate/charter/frac, are you still glad you did it? Do you have a better QOL? How long did it take to equal the previous QOL?

 

[svcta]

do a thread search... I think you'll find that those of us that were fortunate enough to make it out of 121 have never and will never look back. I did it about 5 months ago and my life has never been better. No drama, no bitching, no management, etc. I work for a man who wants me to work for him and be happy with my job. Granted I fell(it fell on to me, actually) in to a dream job, but it was the best thing I ever did for myself. QOL improved right away. Your mileage may vary; Depends purely on the job. The primary difference in my opinion is that the corporate market is willing to compensate(by and large) to assure quality applicants/employees to handle their high dollar assets--passengers as well as equipment. Good luck and check the airline attitude @ the door. That stereotype will be the biggest obstacle to overcome in getting a job.

 

[GVFlyer]

One of our guys is a furloughed US Airways B737 pilot. When we hired him several years ago we did not require that he forfeit his seniority number. When he was recalled this year, he didn't go back.

GV

 

[geojet707]

For those that said adios to the Major Airline industry and went corporate/charter/frac, are you still glad you did it? Do you have a better QOL? How long did it take to equal the previous QOL?

Made it out to a corporate job, increased my pay twice what I was making and I usually go home every night. Our owner is great with the crew, we fly a two year old airframe and even stay at better hotels! And the best part, I fly out of my home town. For me, things improved from day one!

I miss the airlines in some respects (semi predictable schedule vs on-call), but this is a much better deal for my family! Best of luck to all trying to make the jump!

 

[snow-back]

I resigned from DAL this spring. Pay was a slightly lower, but will be even or better within the next few months. QOL is definitely better, job is a lot more fun, great boss(es), better benefits, etc. The only thing I can think of that isn't as good is the location. Other than that, it's been a great move with no regrets.

 

[G4G5]

Back in March of 2000 I was flying for NWA, quiting to go to DAL with a class date at JetBlue and an interview at AA.

I went from G5 captain, to sitting reserve in Detroit with 10 other guys sharing at a room at the airport Holiday Inn just so I could sit sideways on a 727. I have NEVER kicked myself so hard but, at least I got to wear the hat (LOL).

Jump ahead to 9/2006. I have never been happier and dread the day I would ever have to go back.

With that being said, I am still holding onto my AA number. I would love to stay at my current gig forever but the CEO has to retire someday(that's when my gravy train comes to an end).

By keeping the number it's an insurance policy to keep food on the table. One I would rather not have to use but the problem with corporate is for every descent job out there, their are 2 that are OK, and 3 that stink. Airline jobs IMHO, are just like really bad corporate jobs, only one step better because you get a schedule for the month.

 

[Swaayze]

I think there are an awful lot of us "airline" types trying to make the move. Unfortunately there seems to be quite a bias against us due to severe stereotypes. I think a lot of the jobs we would like to have are probably much better than airline jobs, and certainly some are worse.

One of the very few nibbles I've had resulted in a recent interview with the owner couple and the director of a new aviation department. Sounded like a pretty good deal and I'm very interested. Unfortunately, one of the first questions was about the airline stereotype and my feelings about the job since the airplane salesman had prejudiced the purchaser against airline types. One of them told me the salesman specifically mentioned being leary of airline types because they just wanna show up, fly and go home. It's very hard to convince someone otherwise that you're one of the few who's willing to actually work hard and take pride in being more involved in the operations if they have a pre-concieved attitude about you.

I suspect the hardest/most frustrating part of corporate is getting the job! If we can get past that it should be good.


Good luck.

 

[52560]

I am happy for you guys who are in a good corp gig now. Unfortunately, I left the airlines several years ago and deeply regret it. I am on the road just as much as I was with the airlines (I was a commuter), but when I am home I have to go into the office. When on the road, we are the passengers servants...we carry golf bags and drive the pax around to bars while they drink (of course we don't get to). I feel it is degrading. On a positve note, they have never questioned an expense report.

 

[glasspilot]

I am happy for you guys who are in a good corp gig now. Unfortunately, I left the airlines several years ago and deeply regret it. I am on the road just as much as I was with the airlines (I was a commuter), but when I am home I have to go into the office. When on the road, we are the passengers servants...we carry golf bags and drive the pax around to bars while they drink (of course we don't get to). I feel it is degrading. On a positive note, they have never questioned an expense report.

Do you think there would be a way to negotiate up front to avoid that sort of treatment or would it cost you the job no matter how you try to approach it. I'm thinking you make a salary to fly the plane and if they want you to carry golf bags or shuttle them to the bar then a $60/hr rate applies.

I don't know of a tactfull way to bring this up into a job interview.

 

[cheyflyer]

I left the airlines July 2005. Went from the A300 to a Cheyenne. I miss flying the big plane but thats pretty much about it. I was a little freaked out about the decision at first but I really hated commuting, working nights, and the winters where I was based. Now I wouldnt go back for anything. I sometimes comercial and have flashbacks of commuting....no thanks.

cf

 

[Launchpad]

I just faxed my letter back to Delta, totally happy where I'm at.

Regards-

 

[52560]

Do you think there would be a way to negotiate up front to avoid that sort of treatment or would it cost you the job no matter how you try to approach it. I'm thinking you make a salary to fly the plane and if they want you to carry golf bags or shuttle them to the bar then a $60/hr rate applies.

I don't know of a tactfull way to bring this up into a job interview.

I agree totally. I was miserably mislead during the interview process. I think that the best way to avoid this type of job is to talk to people in the know...previous pilots, line guys, etc. to find out how the pilots are treated. Be wary of current pilots because the pilots at the company I currently work for also mislead me because they were so short handed at the time they wanted a break. Looking back, there are some signs I should have picked up on but didn't. I was anxious to get away from the airlines. There are some good jobs out there, but like someone mentioned earlier, there are a lot more that aren't so good. Really use due dilingence.

 

[Huggyu2]

I appreciate y'all taking the time to chime in. I'm in that decision mode now, and will seriously consider all that you have written. Keep your opinions coming.

 

[Homer Jay]

I, too, am interested in making the leap to the corporate world. I've spent over 7 years in 121 flying and I think the reason that the airline stereotype exists is because we've continually taken a beating and have been told over and over that we are expendable. Not feeling important to an organization does horrendous things to morale and the "can do" attitude. Personally, I would love to fly for a company that would have things for me to do when I'm not flying. I love being around airplanes, period.

 

[satpak77]

wonder how many guys wanted to "go corporate" when DAL, AMR, UAL, SWA, NWA were all hiring in the mid-90's, or late 80's when AMR was hiring big time.

hmm

funny how that works

 

[climbhappy]

i've been laid off for five months and flew a baron the other day. I can get 300/day and not have to RON. I have a small print shop and this will give the fix i need plus my kids are 10 and 13. it' funny. somehow i might not have chosen this path, but i'm very much at peace having started to have a somewhat normal life.
the other intangible was i sort of grew tired of old crusty flight attendents and the baggage, real and otherwise you had to put up with.

 

[7KCAB]

I left the regionals for a 91 job flying 2 airplanes - Citation 501 and Cirrus SR-22. For me this is the perfect job - I grew up flying small airplanes, flew corporate before going to the airlines, it's a nice pay raise, and it's close to where I live with very few overnights.
One problem with corporate is the wide range of working conditions - some 91 jobs are great and some are horrible. I second an earlier post about doing your research before jumping off of your respective seniority list. I knew my present employer quite well before I left the airlines and had for years - I knew the type flying they do and who I'd be working for. One trick I used (if they don't block their N-number and if they already have an airplane) is go to flightaware.com and run a history of their flights. You can see right away if they are stretching the truth about "only a FEW overnights per month".

 

[52560]

I saw this job on Avcrew.com. This is probably the kind of job you don't want. A personal assistant??? Get real! The bad thing about it is I bet this dudes email account is filled with resumes of whores willing to do that.



Pilatus PC12 Pilot (KY) 9/28

Texas based company is looking for a Corporate Pilot for Pilatus PC12 to be based in Lexington, Kentucky. The right individual will be flying owner’s personal aircraft and acting as personal assistant to owner. Competitive salary and benefits, including health insurance and 401K Plan. Pilots requirements include: college degree; ATP; 3,000 Total Time; 2,000 Retract; and 1,000 Turbine. PC12 training a plus. To apply, fax resume to ...

 

[TXDA2000]

52560,

If this is who I think it is, you might be suprised! Being a "personal assistant" to the right person might be a pretty good deal.

Not that I would entertain the job, don't get me wrong. If I were single, hung like a mule, and looked like Brad Pitt, this might be the perfect job. Of course if that where the case I wouldn't be a pilot in the first place.

 

[Swaayze]

52560,

If this is who I think it is, you might be suprised! Being a "personal assistant" to the right person might be a pretty good deal.

Yep, depends on what assistance is needed and how much the job pays (both in money and QOL)!

 

[Swaayze]

wonder how many guys wanted to "go corporate" when DAL, AMR, UAL, SWA, NWA were all hiring in the mid-90's, or late 80's when AMR was hiring big time.

hmm

funny how that works

Satpak77,


You make a great point, for both of us. For some reason lotsa guys seem to hold a grudge against airline folks for wanting to better their lot in life (or even if they just need a change). I'm sure some airline guys make similar statements about corporate types that lead to these mindsets, but please don't think that, just because a few airline guys do things that give us a bad name, we should all be prohibited from making a change. I happened to go airline primarily due to timing, luck and even ignorance, but I've always respected corporate pilots and their career track (even if they left for an airline at which I wished I flew). It's just frustrating to face resistance from a fellow aviator for no good reason.

 

[52560]

52560,

If this is who I think it is, you might be suprised! Being a "personal assistant" to the right person might be a pretty good deal.

Not that I would entertain the job, don't get me wrong. If I were single, hung like a mule, and looked like Brad Pitt, this might be the perfect job. Of course if that where the case I wouldn't be a pilot in the first place.

Great...I hope it works out to be a good job for somebodyand I always like pleasant surprises. Just for my curiosity, what kind of personal assistance does this guys pilot do for him? When I think of personal assistant, I think of making sure the kids get to football practice on time, making sure the oil is changed in his car, buying christmas presents for wife and girlfriends, driving the boss around, carrying bags to and from hotel room and home after packing them, mixing drinks for all of his and his wife's buddys on a Sunday afternoon. These are all things I have either been told to do or have heard of from other "personal assistants." Thanks for the input!

 

[satpak77]

Satpak77,


You make a great point, for both of us. For some reason lotsa guys seem to hold a grudge against airline folks for wanting to better their lot in life (or even if they just need a change). I'm sure some airline guys make similar statements about corporate types that lead to these mindsets, but please don't think that, just because a few airline guys do things that give us a bad name, we should all be prohibited from making a change. I happened to go airline primarily due to timing, luck and even ignorance, but I've always respected corporate pilots and their career track (even if they left for an airline at which I wished I flew). It's just frustrating to face resistance from a fellow aviator for no good reason.

Just posting what I have observed in the real world. Back when AMR ordered 100+ MD-80's and needed pilots to fly them, circa 1987-1989, you would be hard pressed to find a ATP pilot with a 4 year degree who sought out corporate work. Same in the internet boom years of the 90's, when DAL and UAL was hiring big time. You had guys flying G-IVs for stable Fortune 500 companies who left to be FE's at DAL or UAL, because the airlines represented the "ultimate" in career status.

Wealthy owner at the FBO offers you 80 grand to fly his slow-tation? You kidding me? I would rather fly regionals and make J-31 captain and log 121 PIC time! Kit Darby says this is "critical" for the majors! I want to be a 777 captain at the majors, flying to Europe with 15 days off and hot nubile FA's to go with me. Of course, most of us know that realistically speaking, THAT job no longer exists.

I personally knew a Cactus guy who got hired early 90's (back when they flew a 747) then got laid off by Cactus, and begged the Chief Pilot of his previous Challenger 600 series Fortune 500 job to hire him back. Which he did. This was back when Cactus was having problems and outsourcing MX, trying to pay for their 747, etc. 1990-1992ish.

A few years later, Cactus called him back, and he left. Boom, bye bye, thanks for the second chance. Bye now. All that recurrent training, etc? Those hoops you jumped thru to convince company management to hire me back? Hey, I got recalled, its a major airline, don't they understand? Hey, Bye, thanks.

"This will make me look bad as the CP, I really pulled for you"

"Yeah, I can relate. But, hey, I gotta take care of me. My ultimate career earnings at Cactus are much better. Hey, thanks again"

Nice huh.

That is the stuff that burns bridges. Repeat that many times over, and here we are today. Airline pilots "wanting to better their life?" Only in 2006, the land of no airline pensions, and reduced or zero retiree health benefits.

Yesterday, it was the other way around.

 

[AA717driver]

Kind of random thoughts:

When a lot of us got started, we had a choice between a career in corporate that peaked at the Lear 25 level which may have paid $40k and you lived on the beeper or the airlines which had a guaranteed days off, good retirement and 6-figure pay once you upgraded.

Corporate pay increased dramatically when the airlines were hiring and paying big bucks in the 90's. It increased BECAUSE the airlines were hiring away corporate guys.

Pilots seek the best deal. Why stay with either career path if it's sucking with no end in sight?

Having said that, there's no way I'd leave my current employer to go back to AA and come back asking for my job back if I got laid off again (not impossible). Plus, things will have to get a WHOLE lot better at AA for me to consider going back and a whole lot worse where I am for me to consider leaving.

One of the differences between the two is that the airlines are impersonal. Corporate is insanely personal--EVERYTHING about it is personality driven. The owner's personality, the chief pilot's personality, the other pilot's personalities--all are right in your face all the time.

If someone didn't choose corporate right out of the womb, don't take it personally. TC

 

[G4G5]

I am about to break the code for you

The thing that you need to remember is that most of the current aviation department directors at the most desirable corporate jobs are in the 50-60 age group.

These guys were looking to get hired by a major 25-30 years ago. What was going on back in 1976? Post Jimmy Carter inflation going through the roof, the repercussions of the '72 gas crunch, the Iran hostages, and airlines furloughing. I can remember my folks sitting around the kitchen table trying to calculate whether my old man would make the next cut if they furloughed 500 or 600 guys. Their were NO airlines hiring and unlike today their was no Jetblue, UPS, Fedex or Southwest to apply to.

These are guys who wanted an opportunity to get on with a major and never, ever, had a chance. It wasn't until the mid to late 80's when the hiring wave broke open again (AA's huge MD80 order). By then most of these guys were in their early 40's, which in those days was the kiss of death, no airline hired a pilot North of 40.

Now fast forward 30 years later and these guys are in charge. They have been around long enough to remember when nobody wanted to work for corporate and they are tired of hearing, " so I hear you are a pilot, what airline do you work for" every time they go to a social function.

It's not personal, these guys had it tuff, it took quite a resume to hired by GE or IBM back in the mid 70's most of these guys have an extensive experience level as well as a high level of post graduate education. It takes a lot for them to forget how hard it was for them to get a descent corporate job and they expect the same from the folks they hire.

 

[willNOTfly4free]

If you get a chance, you should attend NBAA's convention in Orlando. It will erase all stereotypes you might have about "corporate flying". You will see how exciting business aviation is as a career. As a recent college grad, I was considering an airline career, but I attended last year's convention and it was hook, line and sinker for me. I'm now happily employeed with a charter flight department and will never look back. Best of luck to you!

 

[satpak77]

good post G4G5

 

[Swaayze]

Satpak,

We don't disagree. I fully understand the whys of the airline sterotype. What I don't particularly care for is being summarily dismissed because of it before someone gives me a modicum of consideration. I know, that's life... but I don't have to like that aspect of it. And you said it yourself (or maybe it was someone else) that "corporate guys" often tried to move to the airlines (and I'm sure some of them got caught in the same bias trap), so it's not anything new. I don't understand why it matters that it used to be the other way around....sounds a little like holding a grudge but wdik? Seems to me the best way to hire someone is to consider the individual as opposed to which stereotype (s)he belongs.

Didn't really mean to start a sideline discussion on this thread. Sorry. I just wanted to point out that it will be difficult to make the move unless well connected. I suppose I'm just a little frustrated with my *cough* career and it's nobody's fault but my own!


Take care

 

[Swaayze]

It's not personal, these guys had it tuff, it took quite a resume to hired by GE or IBM back in the mid 70's most of these guys have an extensive experience level as well as a high level of post graduate education. It takes a lot for them to forget how hard it was for them to get a descent corporate job and they expect the same from the folks they hire.

Understood and agreed that it's unfortunate that they were unable to get where they wanted to go, through no fault of their own. I just think it's a shame that they won't give any credit (and maybe even take away points) for time in the trenches at the airlines. This track hasn't exactly been a cake walk for many of us. I guess I'm a little idealistic in thinking that they of all people should realize that they have a chance to give someone the break they never got. Personally I'd love to have the opportunity to do that for someone.

In the end it's really out of our hands anyway....I guess this is just how it's supposed to be.

 

[doublepsych]

My take on things...

Having been on the airline side of the fence, both regional and major, and now on the corp side of the fence (pt 91 corp not charter), I have to agree with what has been said so far in this thread, but would like to throw this out there:

If you are the type of guy that is personable, and that other people, including other crewmembers, aircraft owners, etc., like to be around, and are reasonably motivated to fly to a moderate to high standard, and realize that flying the plane is only about 5% of what the owners are expecting of you, then you will be fine in corporate.

OTOH, if you are honestly NOT the guy described above, and you don't have enough forethought (or maybe it is beneath you) to cover some non flying details, you will meet some difficulty in corporate, which will likely only increase with time, as it really is a small community.

I have had a lot of friends from my airline days calling for advice on this very topic. Of average airline dude, regional or major, about 60% would not be good road partners, about 30% are substandard pilots, as in need vectors to an ILS or a visual or couldn't plan a departure out of a mountainous airport etc. (which is not to say that there aren't some real wacky dudes in the corp world), and about 90% want 10-15 days off with no responsibility other than to walk up the steps and turn left.

In my estimation that leaves about 5% or less that could walk in and be a good fit in many corporate flight departments. If you honestly asses your abilities on the above, and feel that you are a good fit, corporate can be very rewarding, the QOL can be awesome, and your destiny is much more in your hands that riding some seniority list.

That said I still haven't resigned my NWA number yet.

Good luck...