Quit Airline; now Corporate

[Swaayze]

wonder how many guys wanted to "go corporate" when DAL, AMR, UAL, SWA, NWA were all hiring in the mid-90's, or late 80's when AMR was hiring big time.

hmm

funny how that works

Satpak77,


You make a great point, for both of us. For some reason lotsa guys seem to hold a grudge against airline folks for wanting to better their lot in life (or even if they just need a change). I'm sure some airline guys make similar statements about corporate types that lead to these mindsets, but please don't think that, just because a few airline guys do things that give us a bad name, we should all be prohibited from making a change. I happened to go airline primarily due to timing, luck and even ignorance, but I've always respected corporate pilots and their career track (even if they left for an airline at which I wished I flew). It's just frustrating to face resistance from a fellow aviator for no good reason.

 

[52560]

52560,

If this is who I think it is, you might be suprised! Being a "personal assistant" to the right person might be a pretty good deal.

Not that I would entertain the job, don't get me wrong. If I were single, hung like a mule, and looked like Brad Pitt, this might be the perfect job. Of course if that where the case I wouldn't be a pilot in the first place.

Great...I hope it works out to be a good job for somebodyand I always like pleasant surprises. Just for my curiosity, what kind of personal assistance does this guys pilot do for him? When I think of personal assistant, I think of making sure the kids get to football practice on time, making sure the oil is changed in his car, buying christmas presents for wife and girlfriends, driving the boss around, carrying bags to and from hotel room and home after packing them, mixing drinks for all of his and his wife's buddys on a Sunday afternoon. These are all things I have either been told to do or have heard of from other "personal assistants." Thanks for the input!

 

[satpak77]

Satpak77,


You make a great point, for both of us. For some reason lotsa guys seem to hold a grudge against airline folks for wanting to better their lot in life (or even if they just need a change). I'm sure some airline guys make similar statements about corporate types that lead to these mindsets, but please don't think that, just because a few airline guys do things that give us a bad name, we should all be prohibited from making a change. I happened to go airline primarily due to timing, luck and even ignorance, but I've always respected corporate pilots and their career track (even if they left for an airline at which I wished I flew). It's just frustrating to face resistance from a fellow aviator for no good reason.

Just posting what I have observed in the real world. Back when AMR ordered 100+ MD-80's and needed pilots to fly them, circa 1987-1989, you would be hard pressed to find a ATP pilot with a 4 year degree who sought out corporate work. Same in the internet boom years of the 90's, when DAL and UAL was hiring big time. You had guys flying G-IVs for stable Fortune 500 companies who left to be FE's at DAL or UAL, because the airlines represented the "ultimate" in career status.

Wealthy owner at the FBO offers you 80 grand to fly his slow-tation? You kidding me? I would rather fly regionals and make J-31 captain and log 121 PIC time! Kit Darby says this is "critical" for the majors! I want to be a 777 captain at the majors, flying to Europe with 15 days off and hot nubile FA's to go with me. Of course, most of us know that realistically speaking, THAT job no longer exists.

I personally knew a Cactus guy who got hired early 90's (back when they flew a 747) then got laid off by Cactus, and begged the Chief Pilot of his previous Challenger 600 series Fortune 500 job to hire him back. Which he did. This was back when Cactus was having problems and outsourcing MX, trying to pay for their 747, etc. 1990-1992ish.

A few years later, Cactus called him back, and he left. Boom, bye bye, thanks for the second chance. Bye now. All that recurrent training, etc? Those hoops you jumped thru to convince company management to hire me back? Hey, I got recalled, its a major airline, don't they understand? Hey, Bye, thanks.

"This will make me look bad as the CP, I really pulled for you"

"Yeah, I can relate. But, hey, I gotta take care of me. My ultimate career earnings at Cactus are much better. Hey, thanks again"

Nice huh.

That is the stuff that burns bridges. Repeat that many times over, and here we are today. Airline pilots "wanting to better their life?" Only in 2006, the land of no airline pensions, and reduced or zero retiree health benefits.

Yesterday, it was the other way around.

 

[AA717driver]

Kind of random thoughts:

When a lot of us got started, we had a choice between a career in corporate that peaked at the Lear 25 level which may have paid $40k and you lived on the beeper or the airlines which had a guaranteed days off, good retirement and 6-figure pay once you upgraded.

Corporate pay increased dramatically when the airlines were hiring and paying big bucks in the 90's. It increased BECAUSE the airlines were hiring away corporate guys.

Pilots seek the best deal. Why stay with either career path if it's sucking with no end in sight?

Having said that, there's no way I'd leave my current employer to go back to AA and come back asking for my job back if I got laid off again (not impossible). Plus, things will have to get a WHOLE lot better at AA for me to consider going back and a whole lot worse where I am for me to consider leaving.

One of the differences between the two is that the airlines are impersonal. Corporate is insanely personal--EVERYTHING about it is personality driven. The owner's personality, the chief pilot's personality, the other pilot's personalities--all are right in your face all the time.

If someone didn't choose corporate right out of the womb, don't take it personally. TC

 

[G4G5]

I am about to break the code for you

The thing that you need to remember is that most of the current aviation department directors at the most desirable corporate jobs are in the 50-60 age group.

These guys were looking to get hired by a major 25-30 years ago. What was going on back in 1976? Post Jimmy Carter inflation going through the roof, the repercussions of the '72 gas crunch, the Iran hostages, and airlines furloughing. I can remember my folks sitting around the kitchen table trying to calculate whether my old man would make the next cut if they furloughed 500 or 600 guys. Their were NO airlines hiring and unlike today their was no Jetblue, UPS, Fedex or Southwest to apply to.

These are guys who wanted an opportunity to get on with a major and never, ever, had a chance. It wasn't until the mid to late 80's when the hiring wave broke open again (AA's huge MD80 order). By then most of these guys were in their early 40's, which in those days was the kiss of death, no airline hired a pilot North of 40.

Now fast forward 30 years later and these guys are in charge. They have been around long enough to remember when nobody wanted to work for corporate and they are tired of hearing, " so I hear you are a pilot, what airline do you work for" every time they go to a social function.

It's not personal, these guys had it tuff, it took quite a resume to hired by GE or IBM back in the mid 70's most of these guys have an extensive experience level as well as a high level of post graduate education. It takes a lot for them to forget how hard it was for them to get a descent corporate job and they expect the same from the folks they hire.

 

[willNOTfly4free]

If you get a chance, you should attend NBAA's convention in Orlando. It will erase all stereotypes you might have about "corporate flying". You will see how exciting business aviation is as a career. As a recent college grad, I was considering an airline career, but I attended last year's convention and it was hook, line and sinker for me. I'm now happily employeed with a charter flight department and will never look back. Best of luck to you!

 

[satpak77]

good post G4G5

 

[Swaayze]

Satpak,

We don't disagree. I fully understand the whys of the airline sterotype. What I don't particularly care for is being summarily dismissed because of it before someone gives me a modicum of consideration. I know, that's life... but I don't have to like that aspect of it. And you said it yourself (or maybe it was someone else) that "corporate guys" often tried to move to the airlines (and I'm sure some of them got caught in the same bias trap), so it's not anything new. I don't understand why it matters that it used to be the other way around....sounds a little like holding a grudge but wdik? Seems to me the best way to hire someone is to consider the individual as opposed to which stereotype (s)he belongs.

Didn't really mean to start a sideline discussion on this thread. Sorry. I just wanted to point out that it will be difficult to make the move unless well connected. I suppose I'm just a little frustrated with my *cough* career and it's nobody's fault but my own!


Take care

 

[Swaayze]

It's not personal, these guys had it tuff, it took quite a resume to hired by GE or IBM back in the mid 70's most of these guys have an extensive experience level as well as a high level of post graduate education. It takes a lot for them to forget how hard it was for them to get a descent corporate job and they expect the same from the folks they hire.

Understood and agreed that it's unfortunate that they were unable to get where they wanted to go, through no fault of their own. I just think it's a shame that they won't give any credit (and maybe even take away points) for time in the trenches at the airlines. This track hasn't exactly been a cake walk for many of us. I guess I'm a little idealistic in thinking that they of all people should realize that they have a chance to give someone the break they never got. Personally I'd love to have the opportunity to do that for someone.

In the end it's really out of our hands anyway....I guess this is just how it's supposed to be.

 

[doublepsych]

My take on things...

Having been on the airline side of the fence, both regional and major, and now on the corp side of the fence (pt 91 corp not charter), I have to agree with what has been said so far in this thread, but would like to throw this out there:

If you are the type of guy that is personable, and that other people, including other crewmembers, aircraft owners, etc., like to be around, and are reasonably motivated to fly to a moderate to high standard, and realize that flying the plane is only about 5% of what the owners are expecting of you, then you will be fine in corporate.

OTOH, if you are honestly NOT the guy described above, and you don't have enough forethought (or maybe it is beneath you) to cover some non flying details, you will meet some difficulty in corporate, which will likely only increase with time, as it really is a small community.

I have had a lot of friends from my airline days calling for advice on this very topic. Of average airline dude, regional or major, about 60% would not be good road partners, about 30% are substandard pilots, as in need vectors to an ILS or a visual or couldn't plan a departure out of a mountainous airport etc. (which is not to say that there aren't some real wacky dudes in the corp world), and about 90% want 10-15 days off with no responsibility other than to walk up the steps and turn left.

In my estimation that leaves about 5% or less that could walk in and be a good fit in many corporate flight departments. If you honestly asses your abilities on the above, and feel that you are a good fit, corporate can be very rewarding, the QOL can be awesome, and your destiny is much more in your hands that riding some seniority list.

That said I still haven't resigned my NWA number yet.

Good luck...

 

[ultrarunner]

I am happy for you guys who are in a good corp gig now. Unfortunately, I left the airlines several years ago and deeply regret it. I am on the road just as much as I was with the airlines (I was a commuter), but when I am home I have to go into the office. When on the road, we are the passengers servants...we carry golf bags and drive the pax around to bars while they drink (of course we don't get to). I feel it is degrading. On a positve note, they have never questioned an expense report.

Look at the posting above...


"...for every good corp gig, there are a couple that are OK and three that stink..."

Guess you're in that latter category.

good luck

 

[Ty Webb]

Well, I hate to rock the boat the other way, but I left corporate aviation post 9/11 and hired on at AirTran. How's it worked for me?

Well, I live where I want, but have to commute. Commuting has been pretty easy, since I live near a city served by my own airline with 5 flights a day to ATL, and I generally bid lines that have an afternoon report and an evening finish, so I usually don't burn up off days commuting. I probably spend 0-3 nights a month in ATL, just depending on the weather and the line I get. We recently got FLICA, and that has been a tremendous improvement in QOL (I can trade my upcoming trips for trips in "open time" using my Treo phone or computer, so I can manipulate my schedule to get better trips- in real time).

After 5 years here, looking back, it's been a good move for me. I have been a 73NG Capt for over two years, and enjoy it, for the most part. I average 15 days off a month, never work on off days, and am making a comfortable living, especially since I don't live in an expensive metro or suburban area ($130K). My health insurance is high, but the Company put $14,000 into my 401K last year, and I also had some stock options (worth a few thousand only).

Minuses- I miss the variety of flying. I only fly to about 30 airports now, and most of them are pretty busy . . . . not too many visual approaches, that's for sure . . . I also hate having to deal with security most mornings, although, thankfully, I don't have to do that at every airport. It sure would be nice to be able to pull my car up to the airplane again, throw my bags in the external, and be done with it. I also miss the ski trips . . . and the multiple day layovers in nice places, like Telluride, CO.

BTW- strange but true:

The passengers paying $79. to go from ATL to FLL expect almost as much service as the guy paying $15,000. for it, and there are 137 of them to be p.o.'d. when something gets delayed . . . And the guy paying $15,000. can at least articulate his disappointment in a more dignified manner.

Future upside/downside . . . . who knows what the future holds? By the end of the next year, I'll be in the top third of the seniority list, so, being "out of a job" isn't really likely, but being bought or sold or merged is still a concern, to be sure. And, if that happened, I would probably get out of aviation before I would start over at the bottom somewhere else, unless it was as a street captain, which means it is generally a crappy company doing the hiring. I would go back to corporate, but it would probably require a move, and my kids would be at an age where that probably wouldn't be an option. I guess we'll see what we see. . . . .

I enjoyed my corporate days, and would go back to the "perfect job", but I don't think it exists, unfortunately. I am prepared to be corrected, though, if anyone is offering .

 

[G4G5]

The best corporate jobs blow away the airlines any day of the week.

The worst corporate jobs make most airlines look like paradise.

 

[Ty Webb]

There are a few GREAT corporate jobs, there are some GOOD corporate jobs, and then there are the "Battered Pilots Shelter"-type job.

Kind of reminds me of the old foreign service joke:

"The best situation in the world has an American salary, a British country manor, and a Japanese wife. . . . The worst situation involves a Bristish salary, a Japanese house, and an American wife.

 

[AA717driver]

Seems like in corporate, no good deal ever seems to last. We shall see... TC

 

[G4G5]

That's what I thought about the airlines when they came asking for 23% of my pay and then tossed me out the door

 

[AA717driver]

Seems like in corporate, no good deal ever seems to last. We shall see... TC

How about: Seems like in aviation, no good deal ever seems to last. I think that fits.TC

 

[Turbo]

The best corporate jobs blow away the airlines any day of the week.

The worst corporate jobs make most airlines look like paradise.

Couldn't have said it better.

 

[Freight Dog]

There are many valid points brought up here. I'm pretty surprised that nobody bothered to bring up this one:

When your airline folds, or you merge with another or you decide you leave, and let's say you're a 737 captain. Your hours, your experience, your currency, your salary don't mean a thing. You go to another airline, you're right back to 25-30k a year to start as a reserve probie FO.

On the other hand, take TC for example... let's say his company gets rid of the G-V, TC can pack his bags and get a G-V job somewhere else making similar pay to his previous job... but he most likely will not have to stoop to making 30k/year just to fly a G-V for another company.

Seniority system - the most perfect system and the most flawed system at the same time.

 

[AA717driver]

On the other hand, take TC for example... let's say his company gets rid of the G-V, TC can pack his bags and get a G-V job somewhere else making similar pay to his previous job... but he most likely will not have to stoop to making 30k/year just to fly a G-V for another company. .

Yeah, I'll just whore myself out as a contract pilot for $800/day... TC