Quicky. Does anyone add sim time to TT?

[Icywings2]

Quicky. Does anyone add sim time to TT?
thanks

 

[HAZ-MAT]

i have a seperate column....
but if you are talking about frasca time or something...
i'd put... flight sim.. dual received... and total time

 

[ArcticFlier]

NO

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AF

 

[Tooslow]

Sim Time

I only add Level D sim time to total time and a seperate Sim D column. Any other sim time other than full motion D is worth nothing to airlines. I have showed off my logged sim time to multiple airlines and they all have said nothing and said it was fine...Just my two cents.....................

 

[upncoming]

Quicky. Does anyone add sim time to TT?
thanks

What ArcticFlyer said: NO.

 

[LearLove]

no

 

[Bluto]

No.

 

[MetroSheriff]

No.

Regardless of the level of sim.

A sim is a SIM[/]. Not an aircraft. That is why they call it a sim.

It really is not a very difficult concept. It is amazing that get to rehash is it every 45 days.

LOL

 

[WhiteCloud]

Only use sim time in the total time column until you get your ATP as some of it can count for that purpose. After that, take it out of the total column and just use the total of SE and ME time in real airplanes for the total.

 

[Batman Fan]

If it a full motion sim you can log all your flight time. In fact you would be stupid not to. The FAA certifies a level D SIM allowing pilots to get their type ratings. Pilots are typed in an airplane without ever flying it. If it's a level D SIM log it.

 

[JJJ]

I only log sim time as sim time.

I have maybe 100 hrs of level D sim time. I just don't add it to the total time. For most jobs an extra 100 hours will not get you a job. There is not a big difference between 5000 and 5100 when it comes to getting an interview or job.

 

[Batman Fan]

LEVEL D SIM TIME COUNTS AS TOTAL TIME. That's the end of it. It's not questionable record keeping. If you have 100 hours in a full motion sim log it as sim time and add it to your total time. **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**.

 

[JJJ]

Even if it is legal to log level D time, it's not worth it. Like Walpaper said. If the interviewer doesn't think it's legal, regardless if he is right or wrong, you probably won't get the job.

It's hard to argue over a point like this with an interviewer and still get a job offer.

If you do have Level D time, you are probably in a position where the extra few hours of total time will not help you.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Be conservative. Keep it in a separate column. If an airline's application or interviewer allows you to count it towards total time, it's a simple matter of adding it to your TT. If they don't, now you have to subtract it and they will notice a discrepancy in your favor. (Which is to say, not in your favor.)

 

[Batman Fan]

I have hundreds of hours in different level D sims. It was a conversation piece during the interview. It helped get me the job. Right is right. Log it. Be able to talk about how it helps your understanding of flying a jet aircraft. Tell the interviewer while flying in the sim you learned how to handle multiple failiers, CRM, ect. The SIM will prepare you for airline training. This makes you a great canidate for employment, not a questionable record keeper.

 

[Mel Sharples]

No, no, no...

LEVEL D SIM TIME COUNTS AS TOTAL TIME. That's the end of it.

You are wrong on this. Not to start a pissing contest, but there is a difference between using it for an ATP and counting it towards total time.

Can you be typed in a sim? YES. (If you have 500 turbine.)

Can you use sim time as total for an ATP? Sort of. (See below)

Can you use a sim to get current? YES. (P/C, 90-day landings.)

Do you log that time as total? HELL NO.


That is why you have a SIM column in your logbook. Personally, you can do whatever you want. But go ask the people who interview for every major airline out there if that counts towards TT and they will tell you NO.

What you do in your logbook is your business, but don't tell the up-and-coming pilots that sim counts towards total time because IT DOES NOT.

If you don't believe me, call the FAA and ask if you can just keep logging level D and using it towards total time. Other than using some of it for an ATP under a 142 program, you can't do it. For an ATP: "Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter."

Again, I don't care what you personally do. But to tell others to just "log it as total time" is total B.S.

 

[JJJ]

From the SWA website.

Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, helicopter, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO etc. NO other time is counted

Here is one airlines that does not accept sim time as a means of meeting the requirement.

 

[Mel Sharples]

Say it ain't so!

Can I log the time that I deadhead in the back of the plane???

Please say I can! I want to make it to the next level!

 

[d.fitz]

Mel

you have an MEI dont you? Of course you can leg the deadhead legs.... You should know that : ) - dual given -

 

[Batman Fan]

B.S. I think not. Pilot time that is outlined in CFR61.51 is flight time that will be used to apply for a certificate of rating or to satisfy flight experiance (landings, flying at night, ect.) When you are in the SIM you should log it as SIM time, no question. That SIM time can be added in the total time section. Only 100 hours of it can be used to apply for an ATP, but all of it can be used to show an future employer your experiance. Why do airline set up time requirements for aplicants? So the applicants have "X" amount of experiance and won't wash out of the program. SIM time is experiance, if done with the right training, much better experiance then flying around in a bug smasher.

 

[Mel Sharples]

Only 100 hours of it can be used to apply for an ATP, but all of it can be used to show an future employer your experiance.

Look... I'm not arguing the value of sim time. We all know it can be quite a stressful experience and what you do is your business. All I'm saying is that most if not all airlines will not agree with you. You can discuss your sim training and show them your sim time and even put it on your resume. But if you walk in there with 3000 total time and 500 of it is in a level D sim I bet you will not get the job.

From ProPilot.com: Sim time is "pilot time", not "flight time". FAR 61.51 (e) and (f) specify the conditions under which PIC and SIC flight time may be logged. Also, a close reading of these paragraphs reveals that the FAA is referring to time in an aircraft. The simulator approval level (level "C" or "D") has no bearing on whether the time is loggable. The approval level is just a method used by the FAA to control which tasks may be performed in the simulator (as opposed to in an aircraft) on pilot certification flight tests and FAR 121/135 checkrides.

SIM time is experiance, if done with the right training, much better experiance then flying around in a bug smasher.

I agree 100%. But that still does not make it legal or ethical to log as total time. I may learn more jumpseating than flying a 152 but that doesn't mean I can log it. See the difference?

No one is debating the quality of sim time. No one is saying not to log it at all. No one is telling you not to bring it up in the interview.

But the bottom line? Other than the ATP exception, sim time (no matter the level) does not count towards total time. Period.

I don't want to argue anymore. I just want to point the less experienced pilots on this board in the right direction. (What was the point of this thread, anyway?)

Good luck to you in the future and if your level D time gets you a job, congrats. Just don't blame the rest of us if they raise an eyebrow looking at your total time.

Peace. . .

 

[TWA Dude]

Up to a certain point I had been logging Level D sim time as Total Time because I knew I legally could. Then I started noticing that airlines didn't like it -- so I corrected my logbook by deleting it from my TT. At an interview it was noticed and acknowledged with a "thank you".

Bottom line: sim time is valuable and legal to log -- just keep it separate from flight time when you interview at a major airline.

Dude

 

[Mel Sharples]

Bottom line: sim time is valuable and legal to log -- just keep it separate from flight time when you interview at a major airline.

Why were you able to say in one line what it took me in two LONG posts??? (Being brief was never my talent...)


Well said, Dude!

 

[Batman Fan]

I have an airline job. In an airline interview you need to show experiance level. "This is why I will not wash out." I agree the CFR show a difference between Total Flight Time and Flight Time. The Airlines are not the Feds. The Feds care what your flight time is. The airlines care more about who you know and if your someone they want to fly with. My Father got his airline job in the 60's by meeting the right guy at a party.

SIM Time is Not flight time It is total time.

 

[firstthird]

That is nice Batman but everyone else here tends to disagree with your interpretation. So, when you are running airline hiring someday for a major, live it up. Until then, most major applicants would be well advised not to try to count sim time as total time.

Consider the alternatives.

1. the interviewer thinks it is okay or doesn't notice you did it. So you got an extra 100 or 200 hours on your total time, probably didn't get you the interview.

2. the interviewer does notice and doesn't think it is okay. Kiss that airline employment opportunity goodbye. Getting into a 'discussion' with an interviewer is not a smart move regardless of how 'correct' you are.

So, for a slight and probably unimportant advantage someone is risking an interview tubing downside. Not smart.

 

[Batman Fan]

If the 100 to 200 hours did not get me the interview then why would someone make a big deal out of logging it. I admit I have only been on one airline interview and it was a blast. Stressful but fun. I was challanged about my log book: "How did you come accross so much SIM time?" I gave them my answer explained to them how it helped prepare me for an airline job, and it was an non-event. I'm not sugesting lieing to anyone, or sneeking it past an interviewer. I'm not even arguing with you about it. All I want aplicants to know is they should use and show all their flying experiance to their future employers.

 

[upncoming]

Bat guy seems to be saying that "total time" does not imply "total FLIGHT time", however, I have always been under the impression that it did.

That having been said, this whole argument is squashed by reading part 1 where it defines "flight time" as the time from when the AIRCRAFT moves under its own power for the purpose of flight until it comes to rest AFTER LANDING. This means sim time ain't flight time. Taxiing over to fuel up ain't flight time. Taxiing out but had a problem so you went back to the hangar ain't flight time.

To me, "total time" is "total flight time" and does not include "pilot time". YMMV.

 

[vclean]

I bet a lot of folks, like myself, don't log sim time at all. The sim time for the initials, upgrades, types etc, only exist in company records.

 

[100LL... Again!]

If you need to log sim as TT to "get your hours up higher", you do not have very much flight time. Wait until you get real flight time.

Example: Most of us only put actual instrument on the resume - not total instrument (incl hood). Makes you look desperate.

 

[Clownpilot]

I agree with Bathmat Fan!!!!

Simulator time should certainly be counted as Total Time!!!!!

What the hell is the matter with you people?????

It is a great learning environment that provides valuable experience.

So does jumpseating. I mean sitting there actually in the cockpit you are watching everything that goes on and gaining insight.

The current PC flight simulators are incredible. Technology is so good now that they are pretty much as realistic as being there. If you add a yoke, some plywood on the floor and a couple plastic rudder pedals its **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** near the same as actually flying. Practically identical to the same thing.

I have some videos that show actual crews recreating real airline emergencies in a totally authentic cockpit. I have watched those many times and gained invaluable experience from them.

Frankly, I don't believe JUST logging Sim time goes far enough. Personally, I have decided that the following activities constitute credit towards my TOTAL flight time.

1 Simulator time. All variants including full motion.
2 Jumpseat time or observing the cockpit activity first hand.
3 Home PC simulator time that has a program at least as sophisticated as Microsoft FS 2000 and has a yoke and rudder pedals added as controls.
4 Training videos that depict real life cockpit simulations and emergencies.
5 Technical Aviation movies about airplanes that show actual pilots performing crew duties.
6 Realistic fictional depictions of flying episodes that attempt to accurately portray real aviation scenarios and include actors that look like or actually talk like real pilots.

I DO NOT allow logging time watching movies like 'Airplane'. They are not accurate representations of actual flying.

As a result I have logged thousands of hours playing with my computer, watching TV, and since I have the entire Discovery series of ' Wings' on video my potential for logged flight time is virtually unlimited.

Consequently, by the time I was thirty I had accumulated OVER 32,000 hours of TOTAL flight time. Of course my actual time in any real aircraft was less than 1400 hours.

When I applied to the airlines I used my experiences to my advantage to accurately reflect my wealth of knowledge and submitted each application with my TOTAL time of 32,000 hours!!!!!!

7 years and 25 interviews later I have made it past initial flight time evaluation of my logbook 6 times where they allowed me to actually sit down with the interviewing pilots to discuss my experience. Of the 6 I actually got to speak for more than 30 seconds twice before they inquired as to why I felt justified in logging all that time. My maximum interview length so far has been 2 1/2 minutes. I'm improving!!!

Although I still haven't been hired I believe I am right in logging all my experience the way I see fit. My new goal is to actually complete an interview without being escorted off the property by security.

But, I know what I'm doing is right. If they can't see it then its their problem.