Questioning this profession...

[414Flyer]

He's leaning that way, and I'm encouraging him to think military aviation and away from the airlines.

Telling him about enlisting in Air National Guard.

 

[zman]

Let me ask the guys on this thread this. Do you believe that the reason American pilots are willing to work for less because the road to becoming a pilot has been easier. For example, to be a pilot in Europe, you have to go through the JAA training which is really difficult compared to American standards. Do you think if our standards were higher, we wouldnt have so many morons come into this field?? As a former flight instructor, there is some people that I had trained that had no business flying people and they are!! What you guys think???

 

[414Flyer]

Let me ask the guys on this thread this. Do you believe that the reason American pilots are willing to work for less because the road to becoming a pilot has been easier. For example, to be a pilot in Europe, you have to go through the JAA training which is really difficult compared to American standards. Do you think if our standards were higher, we wouldnt have so many morons come into this field?? As a former flight instructor, there is some people that I had trained that had no business flying people and they are!! What you guys think???

But those courses do not result in a better pilot, just someone with more book knowledge. Its like how pre-med students have get past Organic Chemistry to continue, it an artificial hurdle.

I think the main problem, is that the pilot profession is its own worst enemy. For all the talk of brotherhood, senior pilots will unhesitatingly sell out junior pilots, especially if it results in yet another house or 5th car, or helps pay off ex-wife #4.

And then how many times you have heard pilots tell a student pilot working towards his commercial ratings and a pilot career "Oh just take any job you can to start out, dont care about the pay, you need the experience".

If you ever hear that advice given, take whoever else said that out back and beat them with a hose. That just encourages a surplus of labor that does not care about pay, and that is a totally harmful mindset to instill. What other profession shoots itself in the foot by telling people not to care about pay, then gets all mad when that same person does that for the next job at the regionals?

Its far better, to tell people NOT to take crappy dirt bag jobs, and to find something else to do in the meantime, until they find a good place to work for since its not hard at all to find a job that pays better than an entry level pilot job.

And if you hear a student talk about how he does not care about pay at all, as long as he is flying he will be happy. Offer to buy him a coffee or beer, and spend a hour or two educating him on the realities of a pilot career and why good compensation is important for everyone in aviation.

 

[Freight Dog]

Good point Chockfull... I'm one of the "softies" who hates to see his kid struggle. But I definitely see your point.

Zman, I think the answer is really barriers to entry.

High fuel cost means expensive training. Add in the credit crunch today where nobody lends out any money for anything means no money available for training. Add in no pay-off at the end... you gotta ask yourself is this career really worth pursuing?

The more people say no way... the sooner we'll see improvements in this industry.

 

[CopilotDoug]

The rewards won't return until there is a SERIOUS shortage of pilots. There is Slim to No chance of that happening, and Slim just walked out.

 

[CopilotDoug]

but the future of our profession is here. We can choose to bury Nov. 4th or protect it.

Easy with the fear mongering, Rez. Pilots are still reeling from your last "pro-pilot" buddy, Ted Kennedy.

 

[spitfire1500]

Let me ask the guys on this thread this. Do you believe that the reason American pilots are willing to work for less because the road to becoming a pilot has been easier. For example, to be a pilot in Europe, you have to go through the JAA training which is really difficult compared to American standards. Do you think if our standards were higher, we wouldnt have so many morons come into this field?? As a former flight instructor, there is some people that I had trained that had no business flying people and they are!! What you guys think???

No, the reason pilots are so willing to work on the cheap here is simply a supply and demand issue. You spend tons of money learning to fly, getting your tickets and some experience...what else can you do with these licenses...absolutely nothing except fly a plane! This is where airlines know they got you. In bad times and low demand pilots will take the pay cut rather than have to find another career after spending their $ or being in debt from training. You can raise the pilot standards all you want, schools are still going to make their money and crank out new pilots ( while kit Darby keeps telling them the big hiring binge is here...what a tool). Pilots in countries where the normal person can't afford to fly is where the dollars are. It's all supply and demand. ALPA and these other union organizations can go on and on about "Takin' it Back" and talking tough until there is a demand it won't matter.
People now with the internet age are starting to see what we get paid (especially as a new hire) along with our schedules away from home and the constant threat of being furloughed. So maybe the new pilot numbers will continue a spiral down. Many I have talked to always ask "why don't you go back to your old profession" since I still have the licenses to practice in three states, but thats easily taken care of by asking them "How would you like to hang over dead people in an operating room day after day, after they've had a bad day? (I still cover for a few guys on days off and that's enough to keep me in a plane and listen to the prophecies in the book of Darby....by the way I have never gotten a job through a job fair or any "pay for us to look at your resume" outfit.. every job I have ever gotten has started over a beer with a few others in the industry).

 

[acpilot]

Funny, right now there are American pilots being interviewed and hired in the LAN/ Peru/Chile companies because Latin pilots will not take the low salary that they are paying, but lower paid American pilot will. I'm sorry to bring it to your attention but the opposite is true, the American pilots are bringing the standards in Latin America down in terms of salaries. I know that this is hard for you to swallow, but it is for your own growth.

I really don't care about regionals one way or the other. I'm 135 Air Attack, I can "swallow" the hard truths you're layin' down. I have a job regardless of how the RJ jockies handle this situation. I was responding to a guy who used the example of losing jobs to non-US pilots so I used it to demonstrate my point. Thanks for sharing your knoweledge, anyway.

Simple supply and demand dictates wages, whether you like it or not. No union will fix this; unions are a piece of the puzzle, not the answer. Non-union pilots will be hired and there are plenty of pilots willing to get that job regardless of pay. Some pilots really can't do anything else (no education, marketable skills, etc) other than drive airplanes and the airlines know it! Why pay more than necessary? I mean, look at the young-pilot pool today. How many have (a) degrees or (b) degrees outside of aviation? People will actually go to COLLEGE and get a DEGREE in flyology.

How can this suppy/demand concept be so difficult to comprehend?

 

[machophil]

supply and demand my foot!

there's been no short supply of CEO's, VP's, or managers of XYZ's and their salaries just go up and up and up, regardless of how crappy a job they do!

The military, Fedex, UPS, Southwest all have an abundant supply of pilots to hire...yet every one of their pilots has an awesome job to be proud of.

Could it be that they control their own destiny? Until we take back control of the problem airlines, the profession will continue to spiral downward regardless of how many pilots are in "supply".

 

[BOOZENEWS]

there's been no short supply of CEO's, VP's, or managers of XYZ's and their salaries just go up and up and up, regardless of how crappy a job they do!

The military, Fedex, UPS, Southwest all have an abundant supply of pilots to hire...yet every one of their pilots has an awesome job to be proud of.

Could it be that they control their own destiny? Until we take back control of the problem airlines, the profession will continue to spiral downward regardless of how many pilots are in "supply".

Spot on! I couldn't have said it better myself. Very well articulated.