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Questioning this profession...

Freight Dog

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Now that we had a number of airlines cease operations, furloughs happening again, all in light of having lost pay, retirement, work rules... how many pilots left or are seriously thinking about leaving this industry?

Take for example our group who lost their jobs in recent shutdowns (Aloha, ATA, Champion etc.), what are our choices in this country? Regionals? I mean, how many of us who had good-paying jobs can truly afford regionals all over again without ending up either totally depleting our savings, or worse, going bankrupt?

Is it worth uprooting your family to pursue that flying career in China, India or the Middle East?

What about those pilots who were furloughed after 9/11 only to get furloughed again recently?

I mean... all these furloughs and sacrifices would have been worth it if there was a reward at the end. In light of all the wage-cutting, bankruptcies, loss of retirement, non-existent work rules, is this profession really worth further sacrifice?

I'm starting to question it... I'm really curious about what others think.
 

Linedriver

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There is no way I would move overseas to fly.

The lines to get into this industry are so long because they don't know the industry has changed. They haven't experienced it first hand so they still think there is the great pay off at some point.

There is no great pay off. Just 10-12 nights months a month in a hotel room away from your family. What is that worth?

The salaries are stagnant, if not getting worse, while other profession's compensation are climbing.
 

Freight Dog

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Here's another thing that I'm contending with...

My son wants to be a pilot too. How do I justify spending 100k or so on his education/flight training only for him to make 20-30k a year for quite a while?

Is it worth it?

I also read somewhere that the number of new student certificates dropped off significantly after 9/11...

Is this industry likely going to change? Who knows...
 

Rez O. Lewshun

Save the Profession
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Now that we had a number of airlines cease operations, furloughs happening again, all in light of having lost pay, retirement, work rules... how many pilots left or are seriously thinking about leaving this industry?

Take for example our group who lost their jobs in recent shutdowns (Aloha, ATA, Champion etc.), what are our choices in this country? Regionals? I mean, how many of us who had good-paying jobs can truly afford regionals all over again without ending up either totally depleting our savings, or worse, going bankrupt?

Is it worth uprooting your family to pursue that flying career in China, India or the Middle East?

What about those pilots who were furloughed after 9/11 only to get furloughed again recently?

I mean... all these furloughs and sacrifices would have been worth it if there was a reward at the end. In light of all the wage-cutting, bankruptcies, loss of retirement, non-existent work rules, is this profession really worth further sacrifice?

I'm starting to question it... I'm really curious about what others think.


Instead of questioning it..... why not ask yourself what we are going to do about it...


No one cares about Pilots except pilots... and many pilots seem to be self defeating...

Until we collectively take ownership of our careers we will continue to get screwed... by gov't, corporations and unions.


Problem is when you start talking to pilots about fixing the poblems and coming up with solutions... all of a sudden its too hard, too much work, too political, controversial, etc....


As Lombardi said...

Individual commitment to a group effort - that is what makes a team work, a company work, a society work, a civilization work.
 

Freight Dog

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Rez... absolutely right, but let's get back to reality... how do we as pilots put food on the table in this country?
 

Rez O. Lewshun

Save the Profession
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Here's another thing that I'm contending with...

My son wants to be a pilot too. How do I justify spending 100k or so on his education/flight training only for him to make 20-30k a year for quite a while?

Is it worth it?
.


Have him got to community college then switch to a state university. Get your or renew your CFI. Teach him. Buy a C-172 till he gets his CFI-I, then sell it.

Go to ATP for his MEI and ATP.


Look at it this way.... who do you want flying jets in the US? Your son or some third world pilot.

Flying jets is OUR JOB. IT IS OUR Career.

This is the way it should be in the USA.

US registered jets, owned by US companies and most importantly FLOWN by US citizens and residents.


We need to decide what we want not only as pilots but also as Americans. Do we want the critical economy supported by the airline industry to flown by foreign pilots, south Americans, Chinese, Africans and Asians? Do we want our companies owned by multinational conglomerates?


Sorry to get political... but the future of our profession is here. We can choose to bury Nov. 4th or protect it.


If you want your son to being able to choose to be a US professional airline pilot, then we need to protect and defend the profession.


thoughts?
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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Rez... absolutely right, but let's get back to reality... how do we as pilots put food on the table in this country?


You have no clue. I do. (meaning I will just repeat what I've learned...) But you don't want to hear it.....

So what do you really value?
 

ACL65PILOT

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Remember now is not a good time for the rest of the industries in this country too.
Everyone is cutting back, or holding the line to see how deep this really goes.
 

Orionpilot

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Here's another thing that I'm contending with...

My son wants to be a pilot too. How do I justify spending 100k or so on his education/flight training only for him to make 20-30k a year for quite a while?

Is it worth it?

I also read somewhere that the number of new student certificates dropped off significantly after 9/11...

Is this industry likely going to change? Who knows...


Steer him towards the military and let uncle sam pick up the tab for college and flight training.
 

Freight Dog

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Rez... the only way for a furloughed/experienced U.S. pilot to make a reasonable living being a pilot in this country without going bankrupt is to leave this country and go overseas. Do you see anything wrong with that picture? I do.

Want to fix things? Start from within... start with getting rid of the seniority-based payscales. You can have seniority for schedules/vacation/equipment. But where is the sense in having a 10,000 hour pilot who lost his job in his carrier going belly up having to leave the country to make similar living?? Why not here? Why should that pilot have to go all the way back to making $23/hour just to stay in this country? You can thank ALPA for that.

Yes, I'd love to have my son fly me some day in this country. I really would. But would I want him to be in this f**ked up career field the way it is?? I don't know...

You say... change! How? Think you can change decades of f**ked up thinking in our career life? Doubt that. You don't need to go further than the recent mergers to see that. But hey... if there's any meaningful effort to do so, I'll be happy to support it.

Do you honestly think our industry in this country could get any worse? Really... with the drain of pilots leaving this country to go overseas or leaving the industry because of our f**ked up ways?

I would absolutely, positively welcome foreign ownership, cabotage and all that fun stuff under stipulation provided everything is reciprocated, and their airlines open doors to hiring Americans with our licenses. Things really can't get any more f**ked up than they already are here...
 

Linedriver

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I agree with the military thing. If he has the eyes and wants to fly, let the government pay him to do it. Put in his 20, get out with retirement and start a business. By that time he will see the other options and be less starry eyed about the whole industry.

Time, age and maturity seems to change things and we all end up working for money. Right? The older I get the less BS I put up with.

That is why the airlines do what they do - it's because pilots continue to put up with it.
 

Propsync

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Flying jets is OUR JOB. IT IS OUR Career.

No, it's not. I have no allegiance to jets or my career. You should enjoy your job, that's it.

That said, how can a 30 year old that's married possibly try to keep this as a career. I know a few will get lucky here and there, but that's it. The vast majority will be out of work for a long time. Say 5 years. On top of that, you've just built another big RJ bubble. So qualified guys that are out now will not be able to compete with RJ guys in a few years. You mean to tell me to make 10k a year as a flight instructor for the next 5 years to try to get hired and be junior on reserve somewhere? No thanks.

Most of the people I know have thrown in the towel. Better to start over now and do what you can to save for retirement than to chase a handful of crappy jobs that are open. Once realistic career progression is gone, your career is over.
 

JoeMerchant

ASA pilot
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No one cares about Pilots except pilots... and many pilots seem to be self defeating...

Many times pilots don't care about other pilots.....Most pilots only care about themselves....

Rez O. Lewshun said:
Until we collectively take ownership of our careers we will continue to get screwed... by gov't, corporations and unions.

We get screwed by unions? How so? Say it ain't so...
:laugh:
 

JoeMerchant

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Look at it this way.... who do you want flying jets in the US? Your son or some third world pilot.

Flying jets is OUR JOB. IT IS OUR Career.

This is the way it should be in the USA.

US registered jets, owned by US companies and most importantly FLOWN by US citizens and residents.

Yeah like Mesa, Pinnacle, and TransStates.....Good high paying jobs in US registered jets, owned by US companies and most importantly FLOWN by good US ALPA members....:rolleyes: :laugh:
 

Dan Roman

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He's leaning that way, and I'm encouraging him to think military aviation and away from the airlines.

Seems to me the military would be an great option to start a career in aviation, he could make it a career or move on if he so desires.
That said, if he really wants to fly and loves it, he will and there always will be flying jobs. If he isn't really into it, than yes it's a bad choice no matter what happens.
This industry is and always will be cyclical.
 

acpilot

I am...PROFESSOR FATE!
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Wages won't go up while there is a surplus of pilots. A strong union can only do so much (and it may even help a little), but then it's back to the basics - supply and demand curves. You can't just say, "pay us more or we don't work," because then there WILL be foreign pilots flying US RJ's. Believe me, I want to be able to make money flying big jets 121 as much as the next guy, but until then, it's Air Attack for me.

I don't want to preach, but I think it's high time a lot of us [pilots] start thinking about solid MBA or serious masters programs if we qualify for them. The only sure way to guarantee personal marketability is education. That little piece of paper can do a lot for you.

If you can't (or don't want to) go back and get a degree of some sort, look for specialized flying...it's out there and it's profitable.

As far as pilots screwing pilots out of jobs, it happens and it probably won't stop. In a perfect world, there would be unity but I'd say it's unlikely in this industry at this time.

Good luck either way...
 

EWR_FO

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I would absolutely, positively welcome foreign ownership, cabotage and all that fun stuff under stipulation provided everything is reciprocated, and their airlines open doors to hiring Americans with our licenses.

To do the same job you do now for 30-50% less? No thanks.
 

Whine Lover

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Bruce Springsteen said it best. This ( so-called profession ) is YOUR hometown:

"Now main streets whitewashed windows and vacant stores

Seems like there aint nobody wants to come down here no more

Theyre closing down the textile mill across the railroad tracks

Foreman says these jobs are going boys and they aint coming back ...

To Your hometown, your hometown, your hometown, your hometown "

YKMKR
 
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