Questioning this profession...

[PHXFLYR]

Spitfire,

Not neccesarily. I've talked with alot of our pilots with undergraduate and advanced degrees in other career fields . Most tell me that there has been such major advances in their former fields since they left,they wouldn't be very marketable without extensive retraining.

PHXFLYR

 

[Bringupthebird]

My son wants to be a pilot too. How do I justify spending 100k or so on his education/flight training only for him to make 20-30k a year for quite a while?

Don't pay one dime towards his flight training!

If he really wants to be a pilot, let him create the path that gets him there. Let the choices be his. Let the sacrifices be his and in the end let the accomplishment be his. By taking away all the investment (both financial and emotional) you make the career of airline pilot a throwaway job, easily gained, easily lost when the first hard times come along. Plus he'll resent you for all he "owes" you when he's applying for a job at Lowes with a degree in Aviation Sciences.

 

[crxpilot]

A lot of folks have commented on flying in the military. I do and must say the flying is good and the stability is nice. Sure, there are sacrifices, but I still enjoy it and feel satisfied in what I am doing.

That said, I am rapidly approaching my 20 years and could retire. I have always wanted to go to the airlines but I am beginning to wonder if that is the best move. I have a good record and stand a good chance of staying beyond 20 and possibly continue to be promoted...if I want to. Unfortuantly, if I stay, I will probably move on to a desk job and my flying days will basically be over. But, I will be making a good salary and still be adding to my pension every year. Can anyone give me a reason not to stay in? Like I said, being an airline pilot has been a dream since I was a boy. I am just looking for a reason to retire and give the airline thing a try...that's what my heart says. But, when I use my head, I question that thinking. Since I am not in the industry, I would appreciate any thoughts/insight.

Thanks

What's the old saying....."I would rather die living, than to live dying"
When you are on your deathbed, do you really want to be telling yourself "could've, would've, should've"?

 

[hockeypilot44]

Stay in the military.

 

[727C47]

follow your heart,and trust your gut, the safe thing is not always the best thing, if you want to fly,FLY !!!, find a way.

 

[varkdrver]

fly4unclesam

The industry is shell shocked right now...more troubling news to come ...none of the majors will be hiring nearterm. Just keep your nose in the industry and make the break when the hiring starts again. Don't know what your timing is, I'd guess it'll be a slow 2009 for the industry.

 

[Orionpilot]

A lot of folks have commented on flying in the military. I do and must say the flying is good and the stability is nice. Sure, there are sacrifices, but I still enjoy it and feel satisfied in what I am doing.

That said, I am rapidly approaching my 20 years and could retire. I have always wanted to go to the airlines but I am beginning to wonder if that is the best move. I have a good record and stand a good chance of staying beyond 20 and possibly continue to be promoted...if I want to. Unfortuantly, if I stay, I will probably move on to a desk job and my flying days will basically be over. But, I will be making a good salary and still be adding to my pension every year. Can anyone give me a reason not to stay in? Like I said, being an airline pilot has been a dream since I was a boy. I am just looking for a reason to retire and give the airline thing a try...that's what my heart says. But, when I use my head, I question that thinking. Since I am not in the industry, I would appreciate any thoughts/insight.

Thanks

Once you hit your twenty years, you're working for 1/2 pay. That being said, it really comes down to are you enjoying your career, how do you feel about flying a desk, Pentagon, staff etc, what age are your kids - more moves, school changes etc. Right now its a no-brainer to stay in as virtually no one is hiring, very similar to after 911. But nothing lasts forever and eventually age 65 will start to take effect and there will be a LOT of retirements. From my own experience after 20 years my wife and I had enough and it was time to do something else. Flying for the airlines is a good job but a lousy career. I enjoy the job but not the company I work for. Timing is everything and if you can time it right and FEDEX/UPS/SWA are hiring and you are lucky enough to get hired you're golden. Otherwise stay in, retire as an O-6 with 24-26 years and work part time the rest of your life. Good luck with your decision.

 

[Hazen]

Go the military route. It is better training, and the flying is a lot more fun and challenging. Airline flying is better than sitting behind a desk all day, but that is about it. If he wants to pursue an airline job after the military that is fine. Maybe he can stay in the reserves to make extra money and have a back up in case the airline thing doesn't work out. I think the military route gives more options later in life. If the arilines are not hiring you can get out and find something else to do with your military experience.

 

[BoilerUP]

Many people aren't interested in a career in military aviation, except when times are bad when it is perceived to be "more stable". That's a pretty bad reason to become an officer and a military aviator, no?

Others, like myself, wanted to be military aviators since childhood but for whatever reason beyond their control weren't qualified.

/3x medical DQee

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Hey Rez,

You think Obama is really part of the answer? Watch this and let me know?? 11 minutes, but it is sure telling.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU6fuFrdCJY

 

[414Flyer]

He's leaning that way, and I'm encouraging him to think military aviation and away from the airlines.

Telling him about enlisting in Air National Guard.

 

[zman]

Let me ask the guys on this thread this. Do you believe that the reason American pilots are willing to work for less because the road to becoming a pilot has been easier. For example, to be a pilot in Europe, you have to go through the JAA training which is really difficult compared to American standards. Do you think if our standards were higher, we wouldnt have so many morons come into this field?? As a former flight instructor, there is some people that I had trained that had no business flying people and they are!! What you guys think???

 

[414Flyer]

Let me ask the guys on this thread this. Do you believe that the reason American pilots are willing to work for less because the road to becoming a pilot has been easier. For example, to be a pilot in Europe, you have to go through the JAA training which is really difficult compared to American standards. Do you think if our standards were higher, we wouldnt have so many morons come into this field?? As a former flight instructor, there is some people that I had trained that had no business flying people and they are!! What you guys think???

But those courses do not result in a better pilot, just someone with more book knowledge. Its like how pre-med students have get past Organic Chemistry to continue, it an artificial hurdle.

I think the main problem, is that the pilot profession is its own worst enemy. For all the talk of brotherhood, senior pilots will unhesitatingly sell out junior pilots, especially if it results in yet another house or 5th car, or helps pay off ex-wife #4.

And then how many times you have heard pilots tell a student pilot working towards his commercial ratings and a pilot career "Oh just take any job you can to start out, dont care about the pay, you need the experience".

If you ever hear that advice given, take whoever else said that out back and beat them with a hose. That just encourages a surplus of labor that does not care about pay, and that is a totally harmful mindset to instill. What other profession shoots itself in the foot by telling people not to care about pay, then gets all mad when that same person does that for the next job at the regionals?

Its far better, to tell people NOT to take crappy dirt bag jobs, and to find something else to do in the meantime, until they find a good place to work for since its not hard at all to find a job that pays better than an entry level pilot job.

And if you hear a student talk about how he does not care about pay at all, as long as he is flying he will be happy. Offer to buy him a coffee or beer, and spend a hour or two educating him on the realities of a pilot career and why good compensation is important for everyone in aviation.

 

[Freight Dog]

Good point Chockfull... I'm one of the "softies" who hates to see his kid struggle. But I definitely see your point.

Zman, I think the answer is really barriers to entry.

High fuel cost means expensive training. Add in the credit crunch today where nobody lends out any money for anything means no money available for training. Add in no pay-off at the end... you gotta ask yourself is this career really worth pursuing?

The more people say no way... the sooner we'll see improvements in this industry.

 

[CopilotDoug]

The rewards won't return until there is a SERIOUS shortage of pilots. There is Slim to No chance of that happening, and Slim just walked out.

 

[CopilotDoug]

but the future of our profession is here. We can choose to bury Nov. 4th or protect it.

Easy with the fear mongering, Rez. Pilots are still reeling from your last "pro-pilot" buddy, Ted Kennedy.

 

[spitfire1500]

Let me ask the guys on this thread this. Do you believe that the reason American pilots are willing to work for less because the road to becoming a pilot has been easier. For example, to be a pilot in Europe, you have to go through the JAA training which is really difficult compared to American standards. Do you think if our standards were higher, we wouldnt have so many morons come into this field?? As a former flight instructor, there is some people that I had trained that had no business flying people and they are!! What you guys think???

No, the reason pilots are so willing to work on the cheap here is simply a supply and demand issue. You spend tons of money learning to fly, getting your tickets and some experience...what else can you do with these licenses...absolutely nothing except fly a plane! This is where airlines know they got you. In bad times and low demand pilots will take the pay cut rather than have to find another career after spending their $ or being in debt from training. You can raise the pilot standards all you want, schools are still going to make their money and crank out new pilots ( while kit Darby keeps telling them the big hiring binge is here...what a tool). Pilots in countries where the normal person can't afford to fly is where the dollars are. It's all supply and demand. ALPA and these other union organizations can go on and on about "Takin' it Back" and talking tough until there is a demand it won't matter.
People now with the internet age are starting to see what we get paid (especially as a new hire) along with our schedules away from home and the constant threat of being furloughed. So maybe the new pilot numbers will continue a spiral down. Many I have talked to always ask "why don't you go back to your old profession" since I still have the licenses to practice in three states, but thats easily taken care of by asking them "How would you like to hang over dead people in an operating room day after day, after they've had a bad day? (I still cover for a few guys on days off and that's enough to keep me in a plane and listen to the prophecies in the book of Darby....by the way I have never gotten a job through a job fair or any "pay for us to look at your resume" outfit.. every job I have ever gotten has started over a beer with a few others in the industry).

 

[acpilot]

Funny, right now there are American pilots being interviewed and hired in the LAN/ Peru/Chile companies because Latin pilots will not take the low salary that they are paying, but lower paid American pilot will. I'm sorry to bring it to your attention but the opposite is true, the American pilots are bringing the standards in Latin America down in terms of salaries. I know that this is hard for you to swallow, but it is for your own growth.

I really don't care about regionals one way or the other. I'm 135 Air Attack, I can "swallow" the hard truths you're layin' down. I have a job regardless of how the RJ jockies handle this situation. I was responding to a guy who used the example of losing jobs to non-US pilots so I used it to demonstrate my point. Thanks for sharing your knoweledge, anyway.

Simple supply and demand dictates wages, whether you like it or not. No union will fix this; unions are a piece of the puzzle, not the answer. Non-union pilots will be hired and there are plenty of pilots willing to get that job regardless of pay. Some pilots really can't do anything else (no education, marketable skills, etc) other than drive airplanes and the airlines know it! Why pay more than necessary? I mean, look at the young-pilot pool today. How many have (a) degrees or (b) degrees outside of aviation? People will actually go to COLLEGE and get a DEGREE in flyology.

How can this suppy/demand concept be so difficult to comprehend?

 

[machophil]

supply and demand my foot!

there's been no short supply of CEO's, VP's, or managers of XYZ's and their salaries just go up and up and up, regardless of how crappy a job they do!

The military, Fedex, UPS, Southwest all have an abundant supply of pilots to hire...yet every one of their pilots has an awesome job to be proud of.

Could it be that they control their own destiny? Until we take back control of the problem airlines, the profession will continue to spiral downward regardless of how many pilots are in "supply".

 

[BOOZENEWS]

there's been no short supply of CEO's, VP's, or managers of XYZ's and their salaries just go up and up and up, regardless of how crappy a job they do!

The military, Fedex, UPS, Southwest all have an abundant supply of pilots to hire...yet every one of their pilots has an awesome job to be proud of.

Could it be that they control their own destiny? Until we take back control of the problem airlines, the profession will continue to spiral downward regardless of how many pilots are in "supply".

Spot on! I couldn't have said it better myself. Very well articulated.

 

[scarlet]

As unemployed--waiting on Obama's spreading the wealth !!!

Obama=20 yrs sitting on a pew with a minister that hates AMERICA, ??? Great Judgement!!!! Would you sit there or even attend that church again?

 

[CopilotDoug]

if I can find the link, I'll post it...but there was a good cartoon in the newspaper the other day.

It showed 3 store fronts

One store was called "Shared Risk"...nobody was in there

The second store was called "Shared Responsibility"...nobody was in there

The third was called "Shared Wealth" and there was a line down the block waiting to get in.