Question for US Air and AWA Pilots

[BeCareful!]

PHX, WTF are you talking about? Hell yes I felt bad for AWA guys back in the early 1990s!!! I wanted to work there back then! And I have dear friends at UAL, NWA, DAL.....and I feel for them too. I've sent money to striking pilots. I've walked the picket line for other groups. What the hell is your problem with reading my words and getting this unreal hatred for me? All I've done is respond to the truly reprehensible language your pilots have used toward my brothers here in the East. Without a doubt, I've never seen such BS from any pilot group. To read the crap your people write, it would make the uninitiated believe AWA was a haven of aviation bliss, where the contract was golden and the upgrades were non-stop. You guys make the APA seem reasonable, rational, humble even. Let me tell ya, that's a big task.

What's with the snide "captain" label. Have I ever given off the impression that being in the left seat is any sort of big deal? I don't do that at work, that's for sure. Are you suffering from some tiller envy? Do you miss "commanding" the Dash?

Dude, you've got issues. You have no idea who you're talking to here, and your empty accusations painting me as some sort of selfish bastard are completely unfounded. Are you related to Ann Coulter, or do you just fantasize about it?

 

[Itsallsogood]

Whaaa...... How about just re reading only your posts.

 

[BeCareful!]

What context would that offer? How about your posts there, Mr. 10000+? You come off as quite the tool there, Pal.

 

[Itsallsogood]

Ok Mr CRJ200/CRJ700 CAPTAIN explain how you got that position at PSA? Were you an FO there for anytime? How about the F/O's hired there that now have to wait for you to decide if you want to go back to the mainline ( in the E190) ? Super Senority for you. Screw the PSAers.

 

[Crzipilot]

How he got the position. Hmmm...it's been rehashed and rehased. But to sum it up for you. Jobs being cut and outsourced, ALPA attempting to come up with a program that would mitigate managments "we are in a situation we never dreamed we'd have such oppurtunities", taking of our pensions, Eliminating 3-4 fleet types to the lowest outsourcer. etc etc etc.
PSA, well strangely, hasn't gotten completely screwed. they had about a 35 t/p fleet. and no 49a/c with some more possibly coming. Looking at the senority list, I believe a number of PSA'rs that are capts, wouldn't be if the dork simply stayed and the stayed status quo. Why, well alot of PSA capts that left, I would imagine were able to with the addition of jet time on their resume, others able to, just because they had the experience with or without the jet time. So in essence, if psa stayed with the dorks there wouldn't have been any growth, a little movement. Hence some of the guys that are capts now, would prob. still be f/o's. In fact looking at the numbers 4 crews/ac, as it stands now, the j4j's are only occupying the planes which represented growth to PSA. We won't go into what the future looked like for PSA, nor that the original J4J deal was supposed to be a bi-directional flow, just started in the opposite form. Which is where the animosity comes from, but why does it always have to start with an upward flow anywyas? (retorical question there) The J4J's sucked up some of the capt slots, but alot of those have left too. There's 50% or less then orginally here.

Now I see your concerned about our choice to go to the 190 or not, and the PSAers getting screwed over that fact. Well if your so concerned, why don't you petition your MEC to drop the arbitration requestion 50% of the seats on the 190, so your 2-4 year f/o's can upgrade or your other guys can get back to a east coast base? Especially since there are 1800 pilots on the street, screwing over other airlines? Oh I'm sorry, I guess the better QOL of a shorter commute, and the ability for your jr. f/o's to check out (and continue those lost upgrades) and get a pay raise is more important. Ok....

And before you go slamming the J4J program, watch out....there's always the possibility you may need such a program in the future, as US mgmt figures a way to outsource MORE flying to the lowest bidder.

 

[Itsallsogood]

Well lets agree I will not settle this properly. I have a buddy at PSA. 20 years senority that is constanly being bumped DOWN by more and more 18 years U forloughees. HE loses senority.......... But the U'S DON'T CARE ITS THEIR RIGHT TO SCREW THE GUYS THAT JUST WANT TO FLOW UP. STOP WHINING. And a current update....12400 TT

 

[Crzipilot]

Sorry, but he's not constantly getting bumped down. he's got 20 yrs...and well then he's at the top of the list. Only a few there that have it. When the 700's came on property, it was supposed to be staffed by U furloughees ONLY, I.E. keep 70 seaters at mainline or a shadow of it. the 170's to MDA, the 700's to PSA due to common types. Now the 700's showed up and the PSA guys (rightfully so) cried BS. Well U mec stood and told mgmt, 100% or nothing, well they settled on slotted bidding and the PSA guys got to fly the heavy. With the slotting, it works like this. A certain ratio (currently at 28 or so pilots, get slotted in with the PSA guys. 1 PSA...1 US...1 PSA....and it's only for monthly bidding. So once that started...if he was #2 in base for bidding he became #3...and has stayed there. There aren't continued people going above him. So once again get your facts straight before mouthing off at something you don't have a clue about.

But of course you look all this over, as PSA getting screwed, Open your eyes at the bigger picture and see the OUTSOURCING of all those jobs that the rat jets have taken over. How many rat jets do you guys see in PHX???? what's gonna happen when they take the East philosophy over there and dump 400 rat jets on your routes??? Then start to furlough you guys. Are you gonna cry about PSA getting screwed then??? IF they are the ones flying those things? While ML furloughs? just another rhetorical question to chew on for a bit.

So not sure what your trying to settle, but first step would be to get the facts, I guess.....
I would think with your 12400 hours that you'd be able to see the forest from the trees, but then I've flown with many with much more time than yourself that have the same problem.....

 

[PHXFLYR]

Whaaa...... How about just re reading only your posts.

Yeah...really!


PHXFLYR

 

[Green]

Open your eyes at the bigger picture and see the OUTSOURCING of all those jobs that the rat jets have taken over. How many rat jets do you guys see in PHX???? what's gonna happen when they take the East philosophy over there and dump 400 rat jets on your routes??? Then start to furlough you guys. Are you gonna cry about PSA getting screwed then??? IF they are the ones flying those things? While ML furloughs? just another rhetorical question to chew on for a bit.

quote]

The big picture is going to be when Bush relaxes foreign ownership rules and what's left of our careers goes down the toilet. Remember what happened to the merchant marines? We might as well kiss most international flying/expansion goodbye if he gets away with it...

 

[BeCareful!]

Crzi-

Talking to an AWA guy about scope and outsourcing is like counseling a prostitute on the merits of waiting for her wedding night. They were the original "hey, let 'em fly 90 seaters" group.

And yes, the proverbial yet mythical "screwing" of the PSA pilot. More PSA pilots hold lines as captains than ever before. Talk about whining. I know several FO's who won't upgrade until they can hold a line, but at the same time take credit for being a downtrodden, 4 year FO. Everyone's got a story.

Crzi is right, though, J4J was one last ditch effort from ALPA to force the company to deal with outsourcing in a fair and equitable way. Predictably, pilots only see it from their selfish agenda, thus the infighting.....and again Jerry Glass smiles.

 

[Green]

BeCareful,

Now that we're finger pointing you Us Airways guys would be the original "We'll do anything to keep flying, aka, Give up our pensions voluntarily and take a 50% paycut group!"

Your MEC flat out gave up the pensions with the threat of shutting the airline down and basically paved the way for the same events to happen at UAL and possibly DAl and NWA. You talk about upholding the profession yet Beebe led the charge in giving unprecedented concessions that will take decades to recover at best. I would argue that before your group gave up its retirement none of the other legacy managements would dream of that possibility.

Your pilot group made choices as well and it's pretty hipocritical of you to point your fingers at others as sell outs. I'm sure you'll point at our contract and say you were forced to match us bottom feeders but we represented such a small portion of the industry we did not really constitute a major threat.

 

[BeCareful!]

Green -

Actually, Dave "labor friendly" Seigel specifically targeted AWA as a cost structure he said we needed to meet. AWA's hard times came long before U's, so you guys were naturally ahead of the game. (Of course, the only reason for that was that people used to pay big money to fly around the Northeast.....otherwise, I'm sure U would have been in bad shape a lot sooner.)

But I wholeheartedly agree that U ALPA caved in huge.

Terrible, terrible times we are all living through. Whether or not any of it was avoidable is a debate that will last the rest of our careers.

Of course, I didn't get to vote on any of the concessions....I'm only living with the aftermath.

 

[Soulfly]

Date of Hire baby!

DOH.DOH.

Peace.....

 

[Marko Ramius]

Crzi-

Talking to an AWA guy about scope and outsourcing is like counseling a prostitute on the merits of waiting for her wedding night. They were the original "hey, let 'em fly 90 seaters" group.

That's a great sound bite except that I believe it's lacking in fact. Prior to their BK, I believe AWA flew all of their express stuff with their own pilots in Dash-8's. I don't think they even had union representation then, just some kind of board called a FAB(??) or something. I'm not exactly clear on that, I'm sure someone else on this board is though. The main point though, is that no contract, no scope. I think they became ALPA in 1995 and the contract they had was doomed from the start since it was their first one and it was a BK contract which the U guys should know all about. They didn't any scope protection at all until their second contract (2003) and the 90 seaters was well out of the bag by then-pilot group wishes not withstanding. There's nothing to stop that from happening at a lot of similar LCC's, it's just that AWA was the one it did happen to. To say that AWA invited the 90 seaters is a crock.

 

[Itsallsogood]

OK date of hire. except those on furlough.