Question for those of you who fly in or out JFK

[atcloser]

I'm totally ok with the Dash-8s doing their approach and landings on 31L. What I'm not ok with is the fact that controllers are allowing 31L landings by the Dash-8s, Comair RJs and a high number of Delta jets when I'm number 35 for takeoff on 31L. I understand the requirement on getting planes out of the sky, but when we're fuel limited to the west coast for winds, or if I'm crossing the Atlantic, nothing burns me more than to have to wait for a -8 to land on 31L when the conga line is that long for departure!!!

Blue Bayou, I understand your sentiment. This is a big issue for us too. We have carte blanche on 31L from about 230pm-530pm, when our major arrival push goes on each day - we average about 200 arrivals in those 3 hours usually. In that case 31L is a necessity. After 530pm, the tower ususally takes 31L from us for the departure rush at 6pm-9pm. However, around 7-8, we get a huge arrival push, and are forced to put some a/c on 31L. There is a big debate over favoring arrivals vs departures at that time, we see it as the arrivals are airborne and need to land, especially with the huge jump in fuel emergencies and min fuels lately... But we are aware of the conga line for departure as well.

 

[atcloser]

atcloser,

As for us slowing, it has been an issue. I was asked about a month ago to give the tower sup a call after a landing. (btw, scared the heck out of me, I wish they would have told me it was nothing when they gave me a number). The issue was exactly the what bluejuice was referring to. We kept our speed up as long as possible for 31R. 200 to zulab and then had to start slowing to be stable by 1000agl. I was on the 320 for 18 months and it was easy to keep the speed up as long as possible to help out as long as you were stabilized are by 500 vmc/day and 1000 imc/night. Now, I am on the 190 and its 1000 all the time so we have to start slowing. To add to the problem is that the 190 has a slightly slower approach speed than the 320 and much slower than the CRJ's out there so the 190 can cause some problems as well. I was asked about why we were always slowing early by the tower sup and I explained this to him. He sounded suprised as he did not know that the 190's had a slower appch speed and had to be stable by 1000. The guy was actually really nice about it but said that when we slowed we forced some vectoring for a heavy behind us. So, are you noticing this with the 190's at all and how are you guys adapting to them.

Longhorn, yes we have noticed the E190's slowing prematurely and some of us has planned around it. I must admit it has caused some good problems for us on occassion when we are banking on the JBU flight (E190 or A320) to keep it fast when trying to shove you in front of a slow heavy jet from ROBER. After being burnt several times by an E190 slowing without being told or slowing way too much on final, I sometimes plan my operation on final differently.

 

[atcloser]

atcloser,

Over in ORD traffic saturation is also an issue. In ORD the policy is that YOU WILL do 250kts until told to do otherwise. ORD controllers seem to do a better job of maintaining interval/speed control on final.

Part of the problem at JFK are those heavies from the other side of the pond that I see flying over my house in Huntington with there gear hanging down and dragging it in....don't they know that gas is expensive?

I hope things are going well, I haven't been by for a visit since supervisor R.R. left some 10 years ago.

I also think that getting controllers FAM jump seats back would help.

XwayVis31, I wish we could have a 250knot policy at JFK. The foreigners and heavies wont do it for us though. There are a few carriers from over the pond who slow to 180 25 miles from the airport without telling us, and its a pain in the neck to work out esepcially when busy. There are other US carriers, no names mentioned, who fly 757's mostly, who do the same, and also slow to buck speed on the localizers. Causes major problems as well.

ORD controllers can do a better job at intervals and speed control as their finals are already lined up for them from the center. You guys get put on the localizers 40 miles from the airport there with 10 mile gaps, ORD fills those gaps later on, and do a very good job at it. At JFK, we dont know your sequence most of the time until the last 15-20 miles of your flight. That is due to airspace constraints. When you fly into JFK, you we be sequenced by up to 3 different feeder controllers in 4 different places depending on the flow. We dont have airspace to be turning people on the loc 50 miles from the airport, and must decide at the last minute where to put you and then make it work, which can be challenging.

 

[fandango]

Thanks atcloser

This has been great info, atcloser. Ive learned alot. I am with an airline that just opened a base at JFK. I used to fly there with another airline, but now am with not only alot of new guys, but we are now in a 738. The 800 is terrible at vnaving to next crossing restrictions while maintaining airspeed. It seems to like to do one or the other, but has a devil of a time doing both. We have to give the box alot of false tailwinds, tell it the anti-ice will be on for the duration, etc etc.
I prefer the vis as stated by most in the above posts. Makes it alot easier to get the plane configured how y'all need our speed in a more timely manner. Our specs say we are to be fully stabilized by 500 when vmc, 1000 imc. Problem is, until all our new guys get oe done and a little time in the plane, thats pretty late.

Thanks again for your time and communication. This is the kind of stuff I was hoping for on FI.

 

[Blue Dude]

atcloser, I think the reason you've been burned by the JB 190's on occasion is because you expect them to behave the same way as the 320's. But the 190's have had the 1000' stable criteria from the beginning of their ops, while the 320's have been trucking in at 200 kts at 2000' to the marker. It's been decided to rationalize the operations of the fleets to have the SOP's as common as possible, so the 320 stable criteria will be changed to match the 190 limits. I think it happened in that way in the interest of safety, as it's more conservative to be stable earlier than later.

Don't worry, we'll still help, but we might have to slow to 180 at the marker instead of 200 to make sure it all works out by 1000 ft. Hope this helps.

 

[T-prop]

The Dash 8's have not been as much as a problem as I thought they would be when they first arrived. JFK used to have a ton of props mixed in up until around 9/11, so most of the controllers are pro's at fitting them in with the lines of heavys. They also had the "4L stub" back in the day which we dont have anymore. 90% of the DASH 8's come to use via Deer Park VOR at a low altitude, and if we are on 31's, they most always fit naturally onto 31L (we keep them above 31R traffic and dump them in to 31L with a healthy mix of Deltas and Comairs). 22's are ususally not a problem if we are using VOR/DME 22L and VOR13L. They can create some moderate problems when we are landing 4's or Staggered ILS 22's in bad weather or if we dont have 22 availble when VOR 13L is in use. They usually do about 220-230 knots which helps too.

I know we are slow, I almost wet myself with joy the other day when we "overtook" a Cessna 340.

Since, we have no problem slowing down it can be used as an advantage.

The Dash is able to do 140 kts from the marker to 200' slow to 100 kts by the threshold and still making the first taxiway 2000' down the runway all while being "stabilized." Since most guys on the Dash are new to the airplane and airspace it will take a few months for us to be as flexible as the Dash is capable with visuals.

We have been requested to do 180 to a five mile final, which if we follow the GS violates our 1500' AFL gear down policy. The problem being, we need to slow to a painful 158 kts for gear speed and be fully configured for flaps 35 (148kts max) by 1000' feet.

When I have been requested to do a 180 kts to a 5 mile final @ about 6-7 miles I get the gear down and configure, but I try to make up the lost speed by doing 140 kts to at least 500' and still exit the rwy as fast as possible. Which has kept me from getting yelled at.

I have e-mailed our Chief Pilot and head of training about the possibility of lowering the 1500' gear down policy to 1000'. Thereby, granting us the ability to do 180kts to a 5 mile final for ya. We have yet to hear anything back.

While I'm on here, many times our "expected approach" has changed 2-4 times during the last 15 minutes of the flight. I know this is mostly due to our type and speed of our aircraft. This causes a lot of chaos in our office, can and will lead to violations or loss of separation. Furthermore, we also get some erradic speed requests from ATC especially when we get handed off, one guy tell us 230kts as he hands us off to the next controller and when we check on with the new controller he wants us at 150kts and will often give us a new approach to expect.

I know we are an odd piece to fit into the puzzle, but is there any way ya'll can put the type of approach the turbo-props can expect on ATIS, as well as communicating better with eachother prior to the hand-off.

Thanks for posting.

 

[atcloser]

I know we are slow, I almost wet myself with joy the other day when we "overtook" a Cessna 340.

Since, we have no problem slowing down it can be used as an advantage.

The Dash is able to do 140 kts from the marker to 200' slow to 100 kts by the threshold and still making the first taxiway 2000' down the runway all while being "stabilized." Since most guys on the Dash are new to the airplane and airspace it will take a few months for us to be as flexible as the Dash is capable with visuals.

We have been requested to do 180 to a five mile final, which if we follow the GS violates our 1500' AFL gear down policy. The problem being, we need to slow to a painful 158 kts for gear speed and be fully configured for flaps 35 (148kts max) by 1000' feet.

When I have been requested to do a 180 kts to a 5 mile final @ about 6-7 miles I get the gear down and configure, but I try to make up the lost speed by doing 140 kts to at least 500' and still exit the rwy as fast as possible. Which has kept me from getting yelled at.

I have e-mailed our Chief Pilot and head of training about the possibility of lowering the 1500' gear down policy to 1000'. Thereby, granting us the ability to do 180kts to a 5 mile final for ya. We have yet to hear anything back.

While I'm on here, many times our "expected approach" has changed 2-4 times during the last 15 minutes of the flight. I know this is mostly due to our type and speed of our aircraft. This causes a lot of chaos in our office, can and will lead to violations or loss of separation. Furthermore, we also get some erradic speed requests from ATC especially when we get handed off, one guy tell us 230kts as he hands us off to the next controller and when we check on with the new controller he wants us at 150kts and will often give us a new approach to expect.

I know we are an odd piece to fit into the puzzle, but is there any way ya'll can put the type of approach the turbo-props can expect on ATIS, as well as communicating better with eachother prior to the hand-off.

Thanks for posting.

TPROP, check your PM's.

 

[J32driver]

Best thread I've seen on Flight Info EVAR!

atcloser.... I doubt you will notice much of a difference from the 320's when the new procures go into effect. We can do prettymuch anything you ask and I always manage to be pretty much stable by 1000' agl. In the bus, 180 knots is really easy to keep until about 1500 agl. Anything more than that and it gets really challenging because of flap speeds and not having enough drag to slow down quickly without almost leveling off.

Since we are on the topic of how to help each other, how about getting a full time metering freq. for JFK ground? Call metering, and then monitor ground and wait for a call. That way we aren't stepping all over each other trying to get our name in the hat. This one change would do WONDERS for everyone!

 

[Blue Dude]

Since we are on the topic of how to help each other, how about getting a full time metering freq. for JFK ground? Call metering, and then monitor ground and wait for a call.

I thought that's what 121.9 is when it gets busy. Call 121.9 to let 'em know you're ready, and monitor 121.65 for taxi clearance.

 

[Longhorn]

Best thread I've seen on Flight Info EVAR!

Sssshhhhhhh, dont jinx it