Question for the DX brain trust...

[dispatchguy]

Where I work now we re-dispatch international flights under Ops Specs B044. ATC never sees the intermediate (unintended) destination on those flight plans unless we go there.

I was talking to a captain a while back at DL wondering why we did that way too. His opinion was that the ICAO strip should show the short release destination, with the reclearance routing in the remarks with the RIF/ identifier. His argument was that if he has a radio failure prior to the redispatch fix, and therefore cant get the redispatch release, he needs to head to his short release destination - which ATC has no clue of because the short-release routing isnt in any strip filed with ATC.

I couldnt disagree, other than the thats how its always been done...

 

[clr4theapch]

That Pilot makes a good point... loss coms priro to the re-release would cause alot of confusion for ATC and would prob require the dispatcher to call ATC and inform them of the situation, of course they would probably want the Dx to declare an emergency, especailly in todays environment..

I would think that homeland security would want the FAA to clarifiy this possible gap in carrier ops specs to advert a security scare and all that comes with that.. Maybe this is in the works and we just don't know it?? If not, seems to me that the airlines should bring this up with a fix for the potiential problem, thus showing a proactive approach by the airlines to work with HLS.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Really interesting thread, guys.

Am I the only one that saw "Brain Trust" and thought of Ricky Bell of ATCSCC telcon fame?

 

[onewithwings]

We do it sometimes here. We usually use the filed dest. as the new alternate.

In simple terms, this is exactly how it works.

There are several ways to accomplish this:

One version is dispatching to the second city the a/c is scheduled to fly. For example depart KXX for KZZ flying over the top of KYY (KYY being the intended destination but due to wx, nav aids, lighting etc it's below mins) When the flight reaches KZZ, the destination is amended to KZZ providing they have landing mins. Pretty simple.

The flight was planned with enough fuel to fly to KZZ (plus alternate for KZZ if required), 45 mins of reserve fuel, plus additional fuel for the burn to KYY, taxi fuel, and prescribed CT fuel. We use this for Part 121 domestic and flag scheduled service.

A previous employer also used it but called it a "go take a look".

 

[S5Dispatch]

Happens all the time here on the milk runs through SE Alaska.

 

[DXR-Beavis]

I was talking to a captain a while back at DL wondering why we did that way too. His opinion was that the ICAO strip should show the short release destination, with the reclearance routing in the remarks with the RIF/ identifier. His argument was that if he has a radio failure prior to the redispatch fix, and therefore cant get the redispatch release, he needs to head to his short release destination - which ATC has no clue of because the short-release routing isnt in any strip filed with ATC.

I couldnt disagree, other than the thats how its always been done...

I can accept that pilot's opinion but only to a point. A B044 re-dispatch doesn't take into account lost comm nor do I think it should. Part of the reason they allow you to issue a reclearance 2 hours early is to account for difficult comms.
Here's where I come from on that. Let's take the "what if's" another step further than a NORDO B044 who does not have the fuel to reclear so they should technically land at the intermediate. What if I am on a domestic, a straight flag, or a B043 flag release, I go NORDO then I determine I don't have sufficient fuel to reach my destination? Then what? There was never a need for an intermediate. I am going to land short for fuel, but ATC is going to have no clue what I'm doing. Quite a remote scenario in today's world.
If you were going to list the intermediate on the ICAO for a B044, then why not list one for all other types of flight plan "just in case" they go NORDO and over burn?
It's too easy to "what if" yourself into never leaving the gate.
Sorry for being a little off topic.

 

[dispatchguy]

Oh I agree, and I think all crews do in cruise is play the "what if" game - they could do that til hell freezes over...

 

[alpine1989]

I've worked at 3 airlines and done it at each. There is nothing that says you can't do it. FAA approval is not required although your local guy might want to have a say if you are doing it on a regular basis. Just make sure you follow the regs and your opspecs. If you are 121 scheduled, make sure the airports you are using are C070

 

[uhdt]

Really interesting thread, guys.

Am I the only one that saw "Brain Trust" and thought of Ricky Bell of ATCSCC telcon fame?

Now that's funny! caused me to shudder at first....