Question for the ATC Folks on board

[chperplt]

Why is it that if I get stuck behind slower traffic going to the same destination, you guys/gals will never let me go under/over him and get by him??

Left IAD for LGA and twice get stuck behind a Dash.. He's climbing to 12 and I'm at 10.. I'm 50 knots faster while he climbing, and 30 faster in cruise, yet I have to do circles over Baltimore and Philly and put my aircraft in slow flight to keep adequate spacing.. Seems to make more sense to let me blow past him...

What's the logic here?

 

[ATCER]

This can be for many reasons...

Most likley due to in-trail spacing restrictions for the NY metro area. The surrounding centers (especially NY and Washington) are hit with spacing restrictions by Philly and NY approach. These happen daily and very often they are 20 - 30 miles. It's also first come first serve so if you depart behind a Dash-8 and both of you are headed to LGA then in so many words you are screwed. Yes ... it is not fair and also proves to make more work on our end but it is not as simple as just passing the guy in front of you. There are many more planes ahead in trail (including many more Dash-8's) that you would get stuck behind.

Are you also flying a prop ??? If so then there is not much that can be done but if you're in a Jet that is different ...

The system is not perfect ... there are some projects in the works including the NYICC, airspace redesign (to name a few) that should help with this but the fact remains that the airspace is so saturated there is no place to stick you once you blow past him. Keep in mind the NYARTCC and NY TRACON are handing #'s reaching 8000+ movements a day.

If you continue to have this trouble post the route that you fly (and/or file) type of plane, etc. and I'll see if I can get anymore info ... maybe an alternate route to file.

Fly Safe.

 

[LR25]

Thanks for the honesty ATCER.

That procedure is very apparent going into CLT. I'm at 7000 doing 243kts in a Dash 8 on the arrival, and there is a 757 doing 250kts behind us at 9000, approach will give us a turn or a slow down to 190kts to let the 757 go past us and then descend in front of us.

I dont quit understand, the 57 has negligable gain on us for the 25 miles or so out from the airport. But whats funny is, if things work out, we will be behind them on the final, the 57 will clear the runway at the end, we will slow down, do a flaps 35 landing and land short and I will be turning into my gate before the 57 even reaches the gate complex.

Im not so bothered by it now as I was a long time ago, I just laugh.

Good post ATCER

 

[Timebuilder]

ATCER:

While we have your attention:

is it possible to give us a link to a site where the unpublished (as compared to the published routes in the AFD) preferred routes are made available? There are a few routes I get routinely, and they were not available beforehand.

Also, on Florida flights (BCT, PBI) I'll file a route out of MMU that takes me to ILM or DIW, the an AR 14 to HOBEE for the surfn 7 arrival. When I pick up the clearance, I'm given a longer, over-land route. Then, when I'm on with Washington Center, they can't tell me why I didn't get my requested clearance, and they re-clear me to my filed route!! Can you tell me if there is a gremlin in the works somewhere?

Thanks for giving us your ear...

 

[throttlejockey]

Hey Admin:

Sounds like we need an Air Traffic Control Section!!!!!!!

 

[Timebuilder]

I'll second that, Mark.

 

[skytrucker]

All in Favor.....

That's a great idea.

I got a totally unrelated question, but since we have you here....

What's the separation requirement for aircraft exiting the runway as another is about to land. I thought I was told once that you only needed 3,000 ft. (in class b airports, maybe).

I have had controller's clear me to land with that 3,000 ft. as another aircraft exit's downfield, and other times have had controller's tell me to go-around with the EXACT same senerio.

What gives?

Thanks.

 

[ATCER]

Boy... we really opened up a can of worms. I'm gonna try and answer you guys in order...

LR25 - Props and Jets get fed to approach controls at different altitudes. Very often the jets will get a decent in front of you guys in the props. I'm not saying this is fair but it is a necessary tool for keeping the flow going. As you mention it all works out in the end. I hear CLT can get quite busy...

Timebuilder - If I had a nickel for everytime a pilot asked me for pref routes not in the AFD I would be a billionaire. I know of no publication or website available to the public for pref routing other then the AFD ... which as you mention is very often incomplete. We have binders and computers that have the routing but they are in house (non public documents). I have no idea why they are not available to pilots. Now for your problem getting an AR route into Florida.

You should be getting the AR route you want out of MMU. You didn't mention the route that you file... more importantly the fix that you file from. MMU is a satellite of EWR. Are you filing out over WHITE ??? If not that is the problem. Any fix to the east will put you head on with all the JFK inbound traffic and the computers will kick it out. Try this:

WHITE.J209.ORF.J174.DIW.AR14.METTA.AR1.HOBEE.SURFN7.PBI

Is this similar to anything you have filed ??? I looked in the AFD and they have no AR routes listed ... I had to look up the AR routes in house. I found about 15 to PBI, 2 of which are oceanic routes (which is RVSM airspace). Let me know what happens... if you are filing the route as stated above and not getting it then something is wrong... you are not getting a good service. If that happens I'll try and find out what is going wrong.

Skytrucker - I am not a tower controller and have not received any training in a tower. I looked in the book (7110.65). 3000' is used between A category I aircraft landing behind either a category I or II aircraft. I couldn't tell you how the rules are applied in different situations... the tower guys know those rules very well so I would guess what seemd like a simialr situation wasn't ... therefore the go-around. Sorry I don't have any more information.

Hope the above info helps. I'll try and answer all questions, it just takes me a day or two to get online and then track down answers for some things.

 

[banned username 2]

Hey Admin:

Sounds like we need an Air Traffic Control Section!!!!!!!

Sounds like a great idea to me... E-mail Mark and I am sure he will add it!

[email protected]

 

[Timebuilder]

ATCER

In fact, that is EXACTLY what was filed. I use WHITE because it is a fix on the Morristown 5 departure. Any insight on why the computer would want me to fly the over land route?