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Question for CFI's: Students that just dont get it

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cougar6903

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 2, 2002
Posts
276
I have been a CFI for about 2 years now and consider myself to be pretty good at my job, However I have hit a brick wall with one student. He has about 220 hour and is still having major difficulties with basic air work and the maneuvers for the private. I’ve flow about 25 hours with him and feel we have made some progress, but nowhere near the pace as I usually am able to attain with students. Is it just a case of him learning at a slower pace? I know the other CFI’s he’s flow with and they are hard working and dedicated, defiantly not a case of a CFI milking a student for hours. I’m no Chuck Yeager so I don’t feel its my place to tell him he’ll never be a pilot, but at what point do you say enough’s enough?
 
I remember working at this flight school where one of the students got bounced around to all of their instructors. He had almost 100 hours and not even close to solo.

This may be the job of the operations manager to sit this kid down, but unfortunately, if someone wants to fly, they usually won't stop them.

How old is the student, by the way?

Maybe you should sit him down and have him discuss his progress to you. See what's going on in his mind, and how he views his progress and training. Is his ground material good. Is he of average intelligence. Maybe he's got ADD or something and can't focus enough to develop piloting abilities. Has he soloed. Maybe he's avoiding this, but at over 200hrs, I can't imagine this is the case. Who's paying for all this training? Probe a little deeper into his psyche.

Otherwise, if he's having fun and doesn't mind going dual, keep flying with him. Of course, only if this doesn't totally frustrate you and you're enjoying the time with this student.

You might want to break out of the manuevers and go for a leisurely flight, perhaps try some negatives G's. Change things up. Try to get him to learn outside of a step-by-step lesson.
 
cougar6903 said:
at what point do you say enough’s enough?

When you've given all you can, and that's not enough. What that means is YOU should never say to a student, "you'll never make it." You might point out where he is not meeting standards and suggest he try with another instructor. Maybe another instructor can unlock the door. Having flown with several other instructors is an indication that the student may not have the potential, but it is not solid evidence. I have flown with people who took more than 100 hours - as much as 150 hours getting to private. 150 hours of hard ernest training, not burning holes. But they did get it. Slow but sure. Don't give up on a student just because he/she is taking 4 times as long.
 
If that student was mine, I would sit down with him and tell him that he may not want to persue this anymore. Explain to him that he has almost enough hours to be a commercial pilot and hasn't yet completed private training. Aviation is not for everyone and everyone is not meant to be a pilot. No more than I can be a surgeon. It sucks when things like this happen and it is not for a lack of trying.

As long as the guy knows that he is way behind and doesn't even compare with other students, then and only then would I consider giving him more training.
 
I took my private ground school with a couple of "these guys", one of whom was a former brother-in-law of mine.

What's interesting is they both aced their written tests, but after 30-40+ hours of instruction each (without soloing), they sort of got the picture that they'll never be pilots and quietly gave up, more out of embarrassment than anything else. They were both the type of guys who viewed themselves smarter than the average guy and didn't like to be seen otherwise.

I can't imaging guys with hundreds of hours not figuring that out.
 
At busier airports, most students, on average take 40+ hours to solo. This is due to the high density, complex airspace like in NYC. Taxiing to and from the end of a long runway, holding for departure behind 3 other aircraft on one side and 3 more on the other, constantly having to extend downwind, flying 10 - 15 miles to the practice area and sometimes not even being acknowledged for 15 minutes or more when reporting in for landing. Not only are there takeoff and landing delays, but the airspace is more complicated which requires more familiarizing than might be required in a quiet, non-towered field in the Midwest. It seems most students in NYC take close to 100 hours to achieve the private Pilot certificate. Not to mention this is all done part 61, which is usually longer than 141 programs.
 
NYCPilot said:
I remember working at this flight school where one of the students got bounced around to all of their instructors. He had almost 100 hours and not even close to solo.

This may be the job of the operations manager to sit this kid down, but unfortunately, if someone wants to fly, they usually won't stop them.

How old is the student, by the way?

Maybe you should sit him down and have him discuss his progress to you. See what's going on in his mind, and how he views his progress and training. Is his ground material good. Is he of average intelligence. Maybe he's got ADD or something and can't focus enough to develop piloting abilities. Has he soloed. Maybe he's avoiding this, but at over 200hrs, I can't imagine this is the case. Who's paying for all this training? Probe a little deeper into his psyche.

Otherwise, if he's having fun and doesn't mind going dual, keep flying with him. Of course, only if this doesn't totally frustrate you and you're enjoying the time with this student.

You might want to break out of the manuevers and go for a leisurely flight, perhaps try some negatives G's. Change things up. Try to get him to learn outside of a step-by-step lesson.

He is a 40 year old professional and has a master in his field. He soloed at about 130 hours. Not really “bumped around” from CFI to CFI, they just leave for the airlines one by one and he is assigned a new one. He was flying with each one steadily 2 times a week while they were at the school. Its no secret to him that he’s behind the normal pace, and even jokes that he has almost enough hours for the commercial. We’ll spend a good hour reviewing ground reference maneuvers in detail, entries, sight pictures to expect, varying bank angles, etc and after a few flights it starts coming together. If we go away from it for one lesson its like we’ve never done the maneuver before. He has passed the written with a good score and seems to understand the bookwork, but seeing what the aircraft is doing and responding accordingly just isn’t happening. He has said that he enjoys flying with me and appreciates my patience. I'm just debating if having him fly with a different CFI would help. I don't want him to feel as though I am giving up on him because he isn't Top Gun material.
 
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I guess what's worrisome in his case is that if you get away from the material for a lesson it's like he hasn't seen it before. That casts some darkness on him passing the flight portion of the private. Perhaps if you make any progress with him you can just prep the private ride (teach to the test) when it seems he meets standards in all areas.

When I was a new CFI I was given a new student who only had about an hour's solo time in 70 hours of flying. I soon found out why he was passed off to the new guy, besides the bad body odor. He could actually fly pretty well but seemed to lack situational awareness way too much of the time. I was in a tough spot; he was pressuring me to solo but I didn't think he was safe, yet I didn't want to just send him away as the flight school I was working at might not look favorably on a new CFI sending students away. So I pulled out the regs and specifically wrote down the standards to solo a student and was objective about them. He fortunately quit on his own after a while, he covered his embarrasment about the situation by citing money problems.
 
Been There

I had this same problem during my Private course, finished it out at about 100 hours and was bumped around from CFI to CFI at a 141 school because they were getting jobs at regional airlines. The problem was that once a CFI took time to understand my strengths & weaknesses, he would leave. None of the new CFIs took a strong interest in me and just seemed out to log hours and never cared what lesson we were supposed to be doing, my paperwork was a MESS. I finally found a great instructor that took me from end-of Private through CFI. What made the difference for me was that he was a superstar when it came to teaching Ground work. It made all the difference.

Understanding that this student is working FT and possibly has a family may be a first step. Working professionals who pursue flight training can't commit as much time to the lessons as an 18 year old without commitments. But let them be aware of this, so that they put in a little more time. Tell him to "chair fly" at home and have fun.

-FW
 

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